Camaldolese Creativity

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Community Retreat Spring 2002



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not here
local morning when you run your mouth
my topic for today as marvelous creativity and and that's deliberately vague titled and maybe even somewhat deceptive because i'm going at it would have been directly on going given it historical exchange of commodities creativity and
then after i talk about the history raise some questions out of that history for how it might inspire us today
yeah we'll see where the discussion needs from there is a certainly not proposing this history as something to be reduced located or imitated but something we can take inspiration from
i'm actually going to deal with an example of commodities creativity or in the late fourteenth early fifteenth century the foreign time renaissance and particularly the commodities info inside for channel
and i'd like to tell you how my interest in this came about
my very best friend martha lackner ah has a farm about twenty miles away from our monastery in winter but when i forgot first got to nourish she also had an apartment in new york city and her husband was head of thought computers for the third world at the united nations
and on
they got to be very good friend to find it and micro by the way i was the one who set up the computer system for pharmacies in china so huge hitch up a lot of links with the
the asia particularly china
anyhow they have a son dennis who in the early nineties was studying at the university of virginia in history and he came home one semester and was a very down because so he had signed up to do a paper on where sodium pitino and he needed the letters of pitino and more that happened meant
send this to me and i said i've got the letter should pitino and i just bought them recently from ah one of these book car you know wholesalers that remained ring of books and i thought to myself when i bought them well will i ever need the litres of more celia for channel but i have been reading
train tillman the young a n psychologist and that got me very interested in a vaccine know and i saw a lot of insight potentially there so i thought well they're so cheap they were like three dollars a volume he can't go wrong piano anyhow how i bought some and then they suddenly became useful soda
the i bombed them to dennis and i've never gotten a back but anyhow we went on he went on to one to go to oxford in history and when he went to oxford he wanted to concentrate on the renaissance and he asked me if i had any suggestions for a topic for his dissertation i said yes
why don't you write on the commodities influence on the early renaissance in italy and that's what he wrote on and so what i want to share with you is to try to summarize ah his
his research know we haven't caught me about them is his disregard a lizard totally new different source from the oldest a company of them yet of his dissertation a wonderful of grey okay well he he has a i'd like to take a look at it before i go on
her and job at oxford is george holmes whose one of the greatest expert on renaissance and george holmes told dennis well first of all george holmes didn't want him to write on that topic because he said well it's been done and to know our paul for stellar at colombo
a has talked about the religious beginnings of the renaissance in italy it doesn't really need to be done in dallas kept insisting a genesis an oblate by the way of winter and are so he finally got an okay to do it and after it was finished george holmes said to him my
my boy who have done nothing less than turned upside down our understanding of the beginnings of the renaissance with florence and the connection with the commodities there is a book by arthur field titled are the origins of the platonic academy in florence and i have
didn't read it and cover to cover but taking a quick look at it he only gets one sentence to the influence of trauma sorry the great kemal delays on the beginnings of the academy and and often speak about that later but a how dennis's are a dissertation
one has been quite a break from breakthrough and in the whole field renaissance studies and i hope he gets that dissertation published as a book is enjoy
a conference that was held in london on about three years ago has finally been published y e j brill and lighten our and on that came out in december and job
it's titled his essay isn't it it's a first one the commodities academy ambrogio trauma sorry audio of pitino and the christian platonic tradition and that's also one reason why i talked about christian platonism or least the roots of christian place played an instrument of significant earlier this week
is that you could never read something like this and understand their significance of it unless we knew something about platonism
a neil platonism
all right on
when i was at the way for the consulting and ninety seven i think it was we were in that great meeting room on know that some of you were there and authors that sign and concrete over the door that perhaps you remember on this room met pitino
when latino as though so forth and so forth and i remember looking at up at him thinking will change your payment would be very interested in that and for what's interesting to see and know how these connections have come about
the commodities were conservators of a christian or neoplatonist some simply because they were very tied to early christian sources such as the desert fathers and some of the tracks and of course origin as is meh
any of the western monks were augusta origin or will very great our influences through the whole of the middle ages and have been studying himself the libraries of the monasteries especially in northern europe i think that father will go at aw come on delay has done into
irritation on library of communally that sort of history and i suppose it's contents and so forth i don't know ah and they were resourced and that was the fountain from which they were dwelling they're drawing their inspiration for their contemplative
practice and monastic life while the fathers of the church and particularly the aesthetical sources such as john chemicals ah
the vigor that the komodo late head and dealing with the humanistic a revival centered around the monastery of santa maria de angelis are in florence and particularly the figure of ambrosio travel sorry and i regret pdf said here because
cause he studied all of that perhaps more depth than i have and you could add a lot but trauma sorry was a gift of language he knew both latin and greek and on the and fourteen thirty three he translated diandra nuclear to uses lives of the philosophers
which is a a picture of ancient a hellenistic philosophy it showed the breath of hellenic wisdom
and the humanness of that day and agents florence for very eager to get manuscripts and translations of more of these horses
it's interesting that many of the humanists were also in the world of commerce and they had the money to buy the manuscripts and the military's with bankers of course and this is a interesting little tidbit are because they were bankers they had the vault
it's to store manuscripts in safely and so if you were interested in a humanistic studies and learning and translations and acquiring manuscript who certainly wanted to be friends of the bankers
ah it says if you know new people nowadays wanted to be friends with people up and silicon valley christian neither computers you know that kind of thing
ah travis sorry in his lifetime translated over forty patristic text which was amazing just amazing amount of work in itself besides leadership that he took and besides being a language he was a theologian ah and a very moving force in the coming
model age who eventually became a father general and on was working towards reform and so forth
in his a monastery of santa maria de entre les and florence he entertained on thomas interested aristotelian from pisa who wanted to debate about platonism interesting light on but most interesting way he was a very leading
figure at the council for once some of you may know stingers book charles fingers book on humanism in the church fathers which is in english or and on a study of travel sorry and church fathers and a little bit about its influence on
the humanistic circles and torrance in the late for portrayed the early fifteenth century but dennis bills on from stinger and as more of a connection about how travel sorry inspired the beginning to prefer tonic academy for it
at the council of florence which was fourteen thirty nine i believe all one of the byzantines who are presented the byzantine position was good mistress plus on and plus on showed up at the council of florence with the whole codex of white
of the platonic works and a the sorry became great friends with mistress python and r of course wanted the manuscript and now wanted to to get it and he got it he got a copy of it and it was at the council of florence
and by the way travel sorry was the major translator in the early sessions on the council of orange but not only a translator when it came to the difficult theological issues it was trauma sorry who was able to point to the sources in the tradition
that would settle question such as the folio quakes a controversy and so forth there's you know it never succeeded that counts will never succeed are big but it came very close and it was a very important rapprochement between christian eastern and christian west ah
i don't know that much a bottle so i don't know exactly why i didn't succeed but one of the reasons the visit trains were all very eager to make this connection with latin christianity is that the turks were at their door and so they had a political pressure of wanting friends off in the east
it was at the council of florence that cosmo domenici conceived the idea of reviving the platonic academy and arthur fields book serves that it was because of chemists plateau but dunno would say that it was equally trauma saris influence if not even or
so that's an interesting point and as i said arthur fields book has only one sentence about you know the komodo waves connection with of the conception of having the revival of the botanic academy in florence
the ancient platonic academy had died in athens in five twenty nine and so from five twenty nine a the council was fourteen thirty nine and cosmo domenici didn't really and for chino didn't start the academy to a fourteen sixty three and a good number of years i have
are almost twenty years after
no that more than twenty years so there was a kind of intervening time it was pitino that was the real center of it but the catalyst behind us with from sorry and the place of meeting for the platonic academy in florence was santa maria de harshly and even coming
as plafond was invited to lecture to the commodities market sung santa maria de haan chile
by the way my teacher of the history of philosophy was followed ernest jones or from st john's abbey and college ball and i remember him talking about closing of the platonic academy and in five or twenty nine and he said at the same year that the light went out in the east
ah the light went on in the in the west at monte cassino so you know he was kind of a straight on you know german professorial type but when he talked about that he broke into his big smile have been addicted
so there is saw you know over nine hundred years in which the platonic academy had been closed and the west became dominated by aristotelian and is a largely you know after the thirteenth century and here's this beginning of a real revival i never had really been stan
opt out you know but a real revival are with with the fifteenth century or commodities
at the council of florence travis sorry had to leave abruptly because his mother was ill and when the key points over dogma arose later ah cardinal says reni ah wrote a note to ah ah
dr sorry who was then up a commodity cause he was the general and said domestic model that totem ordered them at they leave the and leave the whole order and come back to trust and who we really need to you're the one that it can help us work out musicians or it's who is very important
the early foreign time humanists were vitally interested in the soles are sent to god on they were deeply interested in spirituality and they looked to the kemal delays not only because they were linked to the
ancient know greek fathers and so forth and they were a source of sources and they had talent and so forth but also because they were an inspiration as far as our lifestyle you know the ancient notion of philosophy instead of philosophy is not just an academic theory or something
but it's lived and suffered some lifeway okay that's why even an early monasticism sometimes monastic life was called the true philosophy it goes it was a way of life so the ancient philosophers like the epicureans and i actually lived a lifestyle that expressed while their philosophy
eventually fifteenth century humanism became more secular honest and on in northern europe took on a very anti clerical in i an anti church ah element but the early renaissance was a deeply spiritual
even for chino moved in to concerns with magic and astrology and her mistress from was twisting bush and so forth are but in the beginning there was this deep interest in our theology and spirituality
there's a scholar at ucla michael ellam who has written on for chinos theology extensible and that's not that far away she might want to get em up some time
and what interesting point to me is that i think that the byzantines when they came to florence saw in the komodo always you know sort of something like first cousins you know they could they could recognize the style of life and spirituality and so forth and that was already
a deep resonance that they felt ah with trauma sorry and especially the group at sancta maria da actually are they recognized the skeet pattern for example hermit churches which they would not have recognized it wouldn't have had a deep connection with our our francis french
ur dominican to so forth with with a kamado knowledge there was this evident connection i don't know i know you've had to cousteau square who i don't know if he said we talked about that the ever talked about the i've heard a pedigree about the huge or what are these things
our case apparition the closest pattern of our heritage
should eat the laura pakistan mohammed year are patient past like the lord for he asked you've known know
the advices use some was them is the recipient power very good as his his encouragement very good now
precisely well i've heard through other sources so friendships can be used elsewhere that food there has very great appreciation for smugglers that's probably why
so the catalyst behind pitino was trauma sorry mom and it's very interesting that are you know he invited the mistress pass on to to speak to the monks are patina was asked to give a whole series of lectures that sancta maria de haan truly he gave sermons had sunk him
maria da actually and donna showed me some of the xerox copy to you had made from the latin manuscripts of a description of sort of the rachio studio era of the monks at santa maria onto onto and it was just absolutely amazing
the things that the young monks were being trained in
interestingly pitino said if you're really going to understand the meaning of these platonic tax you must study them with candidates from antibes whitened minds and what he meant was the minds of the commodities because condo diary meant ah
to take the age haven't and so white and mind was you're going to have to have the spirituality the just position the religious sensibility off the commodities in order to really understand these commodities tracked down civilian
now that was a patina interesting my
ah pitino are taught at santa to actually and under the dome of brutal machining i've never been to florence the know some of your hat and that was the dome at the monastery has left the don't know at the florence cathedral the duomo
gorilla shiny
do you're right you know how risky your ah very interesting that by the way that's the first don't ever built in the west that had no supports when it was built choice so it's a real marvel of architecture
ah when for tinos sermons on paul's letter to the romans were were it starts with this introduction in medio conspicuous place a a la da boateng in the middle of the church i praise you for woman
in confected entre laura solemn tv
the anja war or the the commodities brother who gathered around to hear those those sermons
so dennis's thesis is steps so the commodities always played a central and hitherto unrecognized role in the construction establishment teachings and wider influence of the platonic academy the renaissance platonists saw in the commodities life the embodiment of platonic
principles very very interesting just want short reading from the last page of this of can leave the ssa and i meant to bring the book of essays that the suppurative but i can leave it and i think we want to get the boy and eventually ah he says this
why is it that the early foreign time humanists look so strongly to the commodities and by the way a couple generations later you had the just botox fiona's c'mon lenses at modeling which were the discussions between on about ticino and
yeah no that's why that concrete signs above the door of the grand allah you know at communally and of those are in latin but they are going to be transparent there's critical edition coming out while it's being worked on by your credit line and will be coming up
why did they looked for the mobile age grounded in the benedictine rule and recitation of the songs and following a strict observance a number of commodities houses produce martyrs saints and hermit confessors was lives of poor and work presented a marked contrast to the splendid ostentation of the humanist courtyard
where in a remote sell on the nine forest the two worlds met to the hermitage of communally bumble and castiglione repaired from the pleasure and platonic discussions of the court of reno and humbled themselves at the feet of a simple hermit to be searched the divine mercy a read that to martha and i said your son is key
of event
oh he's in put it gonna putting themselves out the feet and you know of of a simple herman in a way it's true but it's it's a bit of fun read the cute it was the meeting of this monastic vocation with the plate most movement which produce such far reaching effects on a device
element of renaissance spot the order and body to living bridge between the mystical philosophy of plate notion and faith in jesus christ the meeting of these two worlds is manifest in the platonic commentaries of the channel and the philosophy and poetry of orla dini in the also or solani of them
will while the doctrines of the foreign time like five platonists struck a resounding chord among the ways the mystical spirituality of the commodities informed and enliven the florentine platonists this meeting between platonism and monastic mysticism determine the direction of commodity
these reformers in the next century who themselves and turn profoundly influenced the catholic reformation think he's referring to trusting me on look but obviously turned away up from the second part humanism nazi of the renaissance in somewhat rejected
well when the commodities from at hello trusting yawning spoke of the contemplative the center in the early sixteenth century he wrote of contemplation and terms evocative of plato's cave and this this i think is packed with a little danger ah thus i am unable to see a shadow a remote by clear
image of a life which is true life then do i scorn the life which is death rather than life for this earthly life i value only as it helps me to acquire are the one true life off
and will i can be a little bit excessive five thanks because it can mean a rejection of the human society and and so forth the very dangerous and platonic tradition
all right so i thought i'd share that with you but then race a couple questions ah
it's obviously not a question or free duplicating or of even trying to plug into that platonic spring but i think it's very important to know about and i think you don't really understand and appreciate the image doctrine on christianity's unless you know the platonic back
round four
but the significant thing i think i've spent the late fourteenth early fifteenth century and then through you know several more generations the commodities were very much dialogue and connected to the humanist vitality that was in the air ah
so we might may i ask in our day and age where is the vital creative humanism a bar day where where is where is the
the integral humanism the bar day who who's given our human vision that you know there are pieces of the puzzle lives were all for example the work of tom barry about roof theology and you know people are talking about eco feminism all of these are sort of like sparks and
but who is drawing together who is doing the integration and know who's giving the more total view pushes the question i think that we have to ask ourselves who are the weather range yeah no for an integral humanism in our day and words you know the foreign fine academies of the the quinton
nick academy of florence was not
an academy in the modern chance of a university but of watch a group of friends know
and they really came to sancta maria to isolate that was the place of their meeting it was more like a group of friends and of know like though fellow area of a group that met for coffee and tea and no discussion so who are the weather vane to
where the individuals who are giving the integral vision and rj that are worth in a pain attention to plugging into and so forth who were the the theologians the spiritual writers poets through you know authors of fiction whatever it might be who are on on the
frontier of that interval holistic humanism that we could dialogue with today and i think already on dialoguing with
so screwed up for your on discussion
pointed questions what is a house or loves for cheat on christmas tree young procure the soul and the other one says
souls only yagna biggest specifically insolvency it's a big deal about to find you give them a more background is the executive who view of the not you agree with go for train on yeah well he was a great job humanist and to know translator collector of manuscript shaw and also creative writer
that's why i said michael allen who started at u c l a it's one of the great expert on for channel and he's not far from here ah but a very very on you know the the energy of the renaissance was i have brought the old and new together and they went back
two out of the kind of desk ah that was so dominant in the late middle ages with novelist on man the black death and in all of that they looked to ancient greece for springs of vitality ancient huh
elena's from and so forth so
i don't know that much of a bot pitino he was the son of the physician of the meadow trees and he was kind of a chosen long he was chosen by the for channels to be educated them became the leading spirit of the early not a florentine recent renaissance video game is over
what would you think humanism the renaissance
what would be history battery
century but what would be like denver
you know we're so so small you know in in italy there yeah know it was just a handful of scholars all but that spirit spread you're not on whereas we're living in such a global world and you know ah attended to be still
wester and even though it went back to know the easter's the greeks but now we have a a universal picture and so on we have the whole globe and not just in a latin and greek civilizations so we have we have the whole
oh universal picture all of humanity on know it's surprising that characterizes the twenty first century the the impact of technology the blessings of technology but also the negative side so
but i'll just i want to tell your story about james hillman one chapter my dissertation is heavily inspired by hellman and ah when i was just about ready for the defense of my dissertation doctor cousin said to me i want you to call james hohmann and meet with him and
have a discussion about what you're saying and i said oh no i don't wanna do i really don't want to do it because home and has a reputation for being quite anti catholic in some of those writings and anti christian to some extent to i really didn't want to get into a unapologetically struggle with him but god
kirk cousins insisted so i sat down on my computer one afternoon and road up the letter and toss it into the mailbox said day and ah that night i had a dream that i was debating with chance for one and i was pounding on her table and saying but gregorian chant really works
so about two weeks later i have i call james showman and said his or a date that we could get together when are you free and between his schedule and moist schedule we couldn't work it out first thing he said to me was don't take too seriously what i've said you know in some of my right
things about christianity the very interesting so he was conscious that he had been a bit lopsided so
he's he at that time said you should talk to thomas more which i have never done this logic is based on supreme vote on this war of one of the pollutants recreate the roots of what a great success defeat was precisely it's more hoaxes or introduction
with the catholic church was confusion yeah so disgusted religious life in general
it's a good teacher because he wanted to see a combination of the contemplative life at them involved with immediate open coach ah he polish that encircle ways he did some work in which he constantly refer to my family and i alluded monastery
if and were not i wanted to go even said that he would give the the money from his book rights supported with money price anybody want a cheap of github and so on and abuse can plug with weekend project give you a thousand dollars or higher seems lately to ah to that because he wanted to see the most
straight in the neighborhood have be conservative and so he said reason give money as i don't want you to were in the sense of getting plugged into the dicey for doing constraints and so that we can come and worship and then i'm still here from the family so i think one of the great age for is
yeah i've had it what they feel a drop of church tired because there's nothing happening when he wanted to very renaissance can approach
being advocate for example we were crucial to the blessing of he goes the castle mountain which struck by lightning pumpkins it's an actual mountaintop said sure and they wanted us to come from the last thing but in that blessing and with people from every extradition christian non christians have something wage that
as well and it was just marvelous because love the movies as part of his phone and just amazing person it's interesting and built a castle cassettes quite in the tradition young built a little castle yeah no having someone and as the perfect for proportionally the tanning from the greek actually perfect geometric proportions for each
rule then there's also not huge but it's read a statement and you wanted us to feel free to use it even when they were only there were a year and ireland wouldn't you like to use or cancelled
have any kids
i would say about thomas more that i found his first ball quite disappointing are and the care of soul on it started out great and i thought this is going to be wonderful but it sort of starts out great and if i just was you know but the thing about thomas more as i sense
he was searching when i heard a interview of him on radio ah and he said the one thing that he really wanted to explore was his roots in catholicism and then you wanted to find a spirituality and a religious ah
you know him he knew he needed that for integration so he was on a journey definitely
can just back up to yesterday when we're talking with yeah
i'm of this misunderstanding have to comment on that tradition see an aspect to john
you mentioned something about keep your dream
i'm interested difference in revelation in what people can the it came right from your contempt for the experience and so on this contemporary experiences see god as is emptiness his blackness practices and so that three that's all true when but on top of that we have the benefit of
i haven't mystic mystical but also the revelation now to we up to keep him country the revelation of eternity of christ moment when you go to our from the darkness the virus peace will go on scrap we also i just wish anyone just for right
well i wanted to point out that i wasn't referring to the creed in terms of no denying the aliphatic i mean that's a very very important thing in the christian tradition we we have we have searched the the apathetic ah but you've got the thing in the create about create
ocean and own that certainly goes back to the genesis and know
that picture know ah we can deal very creative way with the question of creation whether it's process theology or software so i just say that we've got this heritage within christianity that we have to deal with creatively but even in terms of christ
the connoisseurs of christ you know is the entrance into the alpha phi because he's dying into more mystery which is minimal
that's that's true but we for acumen as we we can't deny or other brothers and the tradition that the day can't has an authentic experience you know i wasn't always rather impertinent recognize prints so yeah for always old intention yeah race is the path but others in the buddhist
traditional gap the can oh yeah well there's no doubt i mean even panic are you know would say that the buddhists you know honor the silence of the father and need the religions of the book are very much geared to the sun and the low gosh and so forth and that that heh
to wilson as particular like the religion of the spirit and then there's some way of honoring a kind of three great systems of the trinity gear religious experience of mankind neven cargo danilo who would not be somebody looked to for a broad vision for example said
ah one christianity true and may ten dollars and there'll be a new theology of the holy spirit came yeah there there's various a a you know we i would no way try to say christianity is the only path and we do have a kind of
conundrum or paradox that we have the fullness of revelation i think that's true and yet it's not exclusive
it's inclusive than anything and always needing to stretch itself outside of its containers which are sometimes very limited
hey wait lists where should we think site
but the time when i allergic to something
are you gonna crash
when he wrote off
hmm it didn't really want to hurt
freeway or right something
the and was a real threat i didn't choose they arrested you didn't follow the world right of what yeah a good mystery is probably the same sending off
i have of it
well it's very interesting to trace how they platonists tradition you know how even survives and they in the west you know it gets clipped on strongly by aristotelian notion of the thirteenth century
and then we have been very much an inspiration in the early renaissance ah and that we get the cambridge you know quaintness know kind of little spark again oven and ah you know i am i would love to kind of trace all of that some time
time and even notice could contemporary and a not contemporaries but people have our own age speak cs lewis and talking and owen barfield i think these people have some sort of log in to that tradition nominated to serve the nation may i mean is like get a
region yeah scientists logical
yeah a lot of booster
yeah yeah i think i think that aquinas really trump the sense of the mind and i mentioned yesterday the article that i i really would like to wave with you because i don't think you haven't hear the influence of the pseudo dying he should have a western mysticism the
this is this is
tom david knowles who says this about our acquaintance and aristotelian epistemology i think i wear it comes back to the notion of mind ah
and the mind's ability to ah
when it in crude like which plug into the divine which was whether it can be nancial
this is what tom dave and all says still more important and a decisive force the aristotelian epistemology the analysis that they act of understanding this has been overlaid in the west for almost a millennium by the prevailing platonic and neoplatonic climate knowledge was obtained so it was too
taught by rising above sent shadows either by dialectic to the form of things plato or to the idea of seen in the reflection of mine and soul of timeless or in the light of the word of god augustan aristotle on the other hand they have a common sense humanist here and i think
an anemic one they put that when the mind presented with sense perceptions and governed by an eight first principles makes from them a concept expressing their essence and nature on this showing god could be no apart from revelation only as the creator the first cause
that's what i was referring to the other day any further knowledge and love could only come by a supernatural infusion of knowledge and love upon the potentially obedience he hours of the soul this was contemplation supported by this teaching the coup de gras and was given to the augustinian divine
illumination of the soul and that's that's that's what plate newsome house with sentence
divine illumination of the soul as normal way of knowledge even the franciscan dance was that are i showed that to your cousins one time and issues will actually puts a very one and that it's a sappy actual and it's also the immediate connection with the sappy angel in the shelf you know and also
so the connection with it in the participation because
well you know pseudo dionysius though he may be weak and some respects in terms of a wider christian theology has a sense of participation so that's why and there's very interesting little pocket alpha of
christian platonism a downside abbey
a dont il to tread home was a christian platonist in our day and age he's deceased now and l read watkins on some of you may know his books the ball in the clouds it's an older book but it gives an integral vision and a theoretical way you know of different kinds of knowledge and so forth
jacques maritain in true creative intuition and art and poetry virtually says yeah there was something wrong with on
thomas' epistemology that it couldn't deal with the imaginal the creative for poetic that's quite a statement for maritime to say
and we've talked about the loss of the appreciation for psyche and the imaginal
in a horse were always people who were creative who were still finding it but the depreciation for for psyche and the imaginal in the west to the agent intellectuals acquaintance it is quite a know
the assertion to make but that this was a very special which question but it's interesting to follow where plate some doesn't inspire people there's something nota and i don't have the answer either requires similarly scrolls scientists images music workers
description for insight the mine
me this girl of distinction it's no spiritual thing through the slinky line of work workers through rational toy
some further
this subreddit for all noisy swiping his this great intuition presence wealth retrieved from revolution wrong you going there are a wonder if we don't know the difference removed from going to be more on the friends and students from which you know
my sleeping
well this is precisely what i'm going to talk about monday a soul and spirit or psyche and of our mind and so forth or
there is a sense in the christian medieval world that the mind is a spiritual faculty ah there's a difference between men's and intellectuals intellect us is spiritual men's is rachio it's the calculating mind
it's a discursive mind intellect this is something different so difference also between why bonaventure for example calls the rachio superior and the rachio inferior or the lower mind you know ah you see every day calculating managing mind you know valuable
extremely valuable but the higher intuitive spiritual mind is a spiritual faculty and i'd venture to say it maybe even was for thomas okay ah what happens later domestic tradition is another thing but ah
that's something that we and our day and age need to recover in a sense of
you know your views are good anti of intellectual was in which dismisses you know a rational thought and theology and so forth for you get mine games and theology but that's why even somebody like david tracy would say the future of theology lies and connecting them with contemplative practice
because it's through contemplative practice we can nourish the intellectuals okay so there is a higher mind
see if you hire mine and or perform honestly
yeah to every definition yeah i encourage you to go through the site you can actually go minutes it's really not mine
thank you for a definition for me yeah well i would say yeah what i would use for what you're calling psychic would be intuitive and imaginal and middle were feared many ways you could talk about it that it's hard to find it hard violent cash definitions when you've come to that so
you've got to sort of play with it that's what's what i'm going to do on monday talk about soul and spirit but not in terms of philosophical definitions for much as trying to ah
to play around it in order to get a perception that are a reminder talking about up our own race
no that's what that's what done david knowles and saying it's not just a question of the infusion you know grades although there certainly are gifts of the holy spirit i would never deny that which them the knowledge okay but there's also already by nature you know by creation and the person
the intellectual switches a spiritual faculty and early christian tradition or especially augustan or and certainly and bonaventure the intellect a spiritual faculty
yeah but wish
what got be worn by john yeah exactly what are the ways that discussed the best is yet john scotus hiragana the irish theologian who by the way did teach himself greek and was able to plug into some of the are greek fathers that the west had really have no contact with
such as r gregory of nyssa was on
got the name of it once on the image dodd-frank basically great a chance go to share again oh says there's a difference between the doctrine which has already given a past participle of dull and and the donor which is the extra gift
okay what happened when you get to later but i'm in no medieval christianity there's is increasing
divide between nature and grace and nature is looked upon as simply nate you know nature of creation
which is without anything spiritual and that's the virtue of platonism you plate know some realize his there's something spiritual about they already given okay ah
that the daughter has already given you know and the gifts are there and the divine the divine inherent says their the the yeast that's left can respect to god know ah when you have that turn towards the rational on the thirteenth century we begin to lose fat now is fair
very interesting that ah
in the sixteenth century and so seventeenth century when the jesuits are trying to combat jansenism they come up with the sense that
nature is indifferent it's neither good nor bad you know chris are trying to save nature you know from the jansenists who say in a human person is full of sand and unworthy and so forth there are trying to make us step forward by saying well it's not inherently evil is
simply indifferent morally indifferent which doesn't say much for creation okay right and so the division between nature and grace becomes even more pronounced in the seventeenth century ah
who wrote the book sir natural to the bar the is very good history of that for the mark doesn't feel and reported mine yours
knowing for making decisions and quaternions yeah the site and part of the mine were reciting deals more with unknown or open
really so i'm constantly use in in motion
i think i would agree with you i don't know if call it psychic but when call of the level of wisdom but even mathematics can be a kind of listening to wisdom i made some mathematicians and cosmologists are that's why we're finding this connection nowadays each way
some your natural sciences and physicist cosmologist and so forth and ah
so even even they inferior calculating mind if it stays outside and he gets out of his golf bought my a tuna can open up to this contemplative saw intuitions of truth yeah i walk can smoke the ball in the clouds might be a good pitcher
the decline the quantum physics and quantum geometry the abuse it seems to me to deal more with oh
a different kind of from
it's a different kind of mass with doesn't have answers as much as questions ah
it doesn't seem to so and answer just seems to keep asking animals
yeah why it's it's out of this golf box kind of in a little snake and it's exploring and was moving to a frontier yeah
how father joseph
i like you're coming from a dick tracy about the future theology year
connection was and contemplative patches yeah and i think they adjust and said something similar now that a suspended products about the institution of
info to to see the face time now is so much yeah west and is and eastern tradition
very much a contemplative based on content that you've basically mystical experience and him so he said naturally are inevitably the future of the patients urology in because of this contacts the eastern religions can be also take mystical experience more soon
for years now the aditya theological reflections yeah
and i want to to to discuss our to
facility a patron is
ah with patriotism ah
your in stop wasting about wanting a pathetic approach in the represent f that's interesting i'm in the conference last week at a testimony and you which cousin was there to be that a man right now and he's old one i will be put in
with movement has to bear the shop right reading the other shutting his mind right and once we were sitting together at table it's hitting i was just for contusion and and the suppression of the
can get the whole year and a contemporary to try to them so on pass christian spirituality you said that is some of balance of comes off adams ah ha too much emphasis by the a prophetic are highly threat of the at the a ah interest
thing yeah he thinks he a contemporary is testing for example the asked to try a key us that beard there's no way reflect the earliest is desert fathers i could go at are in the early riser the ability can thank you i mean they have a from fighting a coach
but they're basically cut feather needs humanity of jesus and and asking the the heart of new chatter he said nowadays i was keeping and so upset him prayer now that is doesn't really fit and so true the week of yeah that the the budget
is that mostly and zen tradition and so on so of cause he provides more efficent but then towards the end there was fear
pure and tradition also spoke and that's a more emotional more and the family because the evocation of with that to end to you cause he was excited i and he said well perhaps because he also something out
as christian catholic tradition and interesting he points out bonaventure a things for the venture should be restored and with the cotton fabric not prevention of bonaventure yeah message to thing and it goes about the across the franciscan tradition is you have also
basically i had the fabric fences can yeah yeah and then she talks that i had up with to one of body influence well suited that issues because he called out by adventure now he your patriotism and paper is if been a bonaventure rather like naturally stay while at the like that's to bad news use
of her kindness niyamgiri able to say there's trauma prophetic tradition so you've been shows influence in bad and and tradition how can you present for make sure as a faggot and he said number of europe it suited their the issues the four major works yeah
a mystical theology is pathetic yeah but reaches the divine names and so on all i can see my i am can yeah estimate at authentic yes and then even potatoes is about nice a bad piece i merrily or from faggot bai need also cease at the fatty
asked the protagonists right those interesting that ricerca right or i am i kind of understand what he's saying let me just give you another very concrete example of that in january i was getting over a little illness and i was in bed re i decided to read i can wilbur's a
out of his death of his wife by cancer grit and grace as i thought they'd be easier thing to read the choice how many other stuff i'm ken wilber but a i decided to read that when it's rather huge volume so i'm reading this i get about halfway through and he's talking about as his wife diminishes he goes off and to
to sort of a buddhist way of dealing with it and alpha over there really is now suffering and know it's off here and i slammed the book dr get together and i got up a ben said that's why i'm not a buddhist killer
i mean that came from my gut even you know even though that i have a great connery a buddha semi-automatic tradition and suffered it was to me a very great example of how the very concrete can be forgotten and you know the world
and yes bonaventure
bonner ventures fail of one of the talks i thought about giving here was the excellence of the franciscan tradition because of bonaventure particularly ah and he needs to be minnow refurbished for the twentieth century in there in twenty first century in are some very interesting
franciscan theologians doing that and st bonaventure university and holy on has a special college now called clare college within the university that's kind of an honours program and the whole curriculum and set up with bonaventure as center inspiring the whole thing very intra
testing to see how that works and of course cousins was a big inspiration in the i met yes precise it we need to jail you know with god the episodic and as bruno says the cosmic particles will was created reality phenomenal the individual psyche kennel
all of that including the bodily well for and we need to deal with the collective the rational that's why i have such a great appreciation for the confucian tradition it stays in the world war i mean i love i'm myself first lay a taoist i'd love to sit in the hermitage
the hilltop but i appreciate the fact that confucians try to live that spirituality in concrete inside society through service of others and so forth both chinese are both yes most chinese are both it's wonder
okay where i thank you next by