June 15th, 1989, Serial No. 00979

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if we want to hear we were wondering if you would bring it on
it's always good to locate a person you're study in the century find out what are the forces at workfare up history is extremely important this is the thesis of the great judeo christian tradition of in similar like joseph cambell you see some stress the cycles of nature and that's a great
eight and inside the east and west up to your ticket is also acting to concrete history god do he said you say doesn't always come out on top that it's extremely important area well someone at st anselm of isn't much better understood i think in terms that centers who does
take a glance at it it is essentially of the great system ten fifty four between eastern church and the western of the patriarch of constantinople excommunicates pope the pope excommunicated see patriarch and some that time on there's up even much before the have been going psychologically spirit
she's quite different directions at that moment it's formalized and very tragic way
some like other or desert typology kind of thing the east coast more and more in the direction of the sappy and that is the midst tradition of literature and mystery and contemplation for monastic grenades archetypal every eastern orthodox jews to do a privilege to my office was evil
the west coast more and more in the direction of analysis science of the scholastic and then spiritual the takes more and more devotion mystic forms he just to warm up but it's not much after this that monasticism declines in west you can only specified with which
disorders of course first the franciscan nun dominican limited up judgments and then all these different orders teaching orders in nursing order received principles models in the east you don't have that you just have to great vocations marriage or monastic and the monastic
are those who put the first commandment by first and the marriage lived through the largest naval lot of hallway
commitment to be locked up about the himself or we become according to the east extremely complicated and inevitably can offer damage would just stop rushing down towards them the reform of sixteenth century or other breakaway of as you get a violent
few distinct faint reaction against all the scholasticism liter says woe to on the search isms and so this was good morning
not long as he he asked as more like attached else the streets and
close no mystique supposed separate goals for your estimate that up the in touch with flows initiatives like rush she
still what bucks page see it
but off the pace is it's much better his candidates all flaws and marshes let's say on what she forces this becomes a much
hominids questions about that when she it's extremely competitive we had a whole course edited sentencing
but ah
he's he said in are technically what was happening was a lot of stuff there was a certain use as patriarch of constantinople he was horrified that the woman church was sending missionaries into bulgaria bulgaria was a good orthodox so it's actually not what they were all ready to bring oh absolutely at every day
for political in terms of prestige already great with great back in six hundred is fighting with each the patriarch of constantinople was just launched the title of universal patriarch for himself and greatness as it'll do that and so there was east a jockey net who is first among equals in what does the primacy of rome mean and up
rome he gets so political but the normans in italy were subjecting the states to the south in adelaide it belong to the byzantine empire and the pope got it and made them adopt the latin right to abandon their eastern right constantinople heard about this was horrified it seemed to be against of diverse
city of liturgy and honoring the eastern church so they forced the latin churches in greece to assume the instrument so there was all is bad for you and it just broke at this point a formal reason is a female quake and why would take a wholesome history but you have your great on nicely and creed you know which comes out of the council of nice he
a and that counts of the letter comes to say don't touch this this is a document out of the undivided church well the spanish church or on the six hundreds ads this little phrase and the sun that the holy spirit proceeds not only from the father but the sun feel quite and the sun this was against areas
and a long picks it up
and then the eastern churches is horrified see how can you take a creed of an ancient undivided church coming out of an ecumenical councils and add things you can't add things without another council but i think we humbly knowledge now that might not be wise to do that until we don't require our eastern rights to add that
when the listen we still say it every sunday
who proceeds from the father and the sun that am the son was one of the motives were breaking news
good all christians but the good and who's now is we've gotten so much closer now to move radical to the again i are the ones that are all the sixth and ccr at times
yes they to get insurance so we're a little yard it out that there's no longer that formal western church excommunicated history sr was been robot would not yet it for communion they didn't celebrate the persecuted
it seems extremely i'm a dialogue with you have eight or nine about cardinals on the dialogue and they have their top theologians so now i'm much more aware of the eastern church just look in our library or your periodical is mystery just every evening will be changed the period humid front of this eastern icon in the from
pete thing people see come in your chaplains and other eastern so up there is this
i'm bringing together again and of course away the high origins of this pope in terms of the citizens to church only problem being he's also very dedicated to the eastern right churches that are familiar with wrong and are a real obstacle for the eastern about some of it's socket on both sides but i just want
point to the fact and that were on the poorer for the split and and some for instance right some of the first political literature to defend the and the sun as does said peter damian now you can make a good case even from scripture jesus's name is sent i shall send the holy spirit go
into the most ago
kind of sublime trinitarian theology and try to get into here but the bottom line the eastern church would say us even if it's true theologically don't add it to the creed there's all kinds of things that are true theologically that aren't in the tree there's nothing about the holy eucharist in the cream for instance the doesn't want to see everything about everything decreed wants to be
a basic foundational document so am i think we're acknowledging back so we would still hold that there might be a real wisdom to the and the sun
questions comments
some the other things that happened that century well in the western all of his politics between the pope and the emperor and king since to who as ultimate authority also of the church the church had become so wealthy so that dioceses and abby's with the center of great wealth a great
power around an abbey would be a whole community of people employed by the abbey and the abbey would have its own little army etc are lots of money so up some of the emperors and kings had wrestled from the vatican the right to invest the bishop and the abbot with a grain and crozier
a and then the pope was trying to get this back and so you have this famous investiture of battles well and so will be right and going back to it's a moving towards the secular in the west whereas the east remains locked in the sacred that you have this pretty mellow alliance between
el zhar and patriarch of moscow between a king of greece and patriarchate of constantinople until on
yeah the collapse of on with the russian revolutions and now with a socialist government in greece a problem is when you could save a little too long then it can just blow apart and then you get your violent anti clerical reactions whereas a case can be made i think in the west through the enlightenment
the church has been dragged kicking and screaming into the modern you might have lost a great deal from it but we also are very much but churches aware that there is such a thing as evolution there is such a thing is floyd and young researcher the and civil rights etc
when you study scripture it is legitimate to do to use of scientific techniques when exam the manuscripts were you ask what really is the author is there an oral tradition behind this what are the different levels and the influences of time etc nice your church so much of this is still absent he chooses secret
colonel fullness of truth and the thing so
i was trying to one person very much to in fault in dialogue with the eastern church she says it isn't basically theology it's basically a fool we have seen things where we do see things in terms of twentieth century categories and they see things in terms of often know neoplatonic
tip eleventh century categories
for instance some they'll still just condemned origin and praised the equally orthodox theologians they don't recognize that the holy orthodox theologians have a tremendously influenced by origin and that are now we threw scholarship know that trend of thing so it's that kind of
a simplicity they call a constantine and helen is great seats were equal to the apostles and careful historical research suggested constantine in many ways was a pretty ambiguous figure so it's that kind of cultural difference on the other hand they have a sense of mystery and a so
sense of beauty and liturgy and profundity and the icons and up
for ceo and something like the jesus prayer etc and we're so caught up in secularism and up with some would argue about so limited to particularly devotions and just now recovering a sense of a liturgy in scripture and the whole again sequential western tradition finally puts it back together
rather than putting person's first and second set
questions comments
in the west it was a great expansion explosion of religious creativity though of the cathedral as you start to be built up in england and seven in which he's one of them decisive for the first building of the and marched up canterbury cathedral so you go to canada and they see that's them
and some all and this is the anselm crypt and it's quite a lovely way to get in touch with history and of course what happened in ten sixty six where the middle of homes like
the other words that's right
yeah the normans and of course when he comes across with that norman invasion and the last invasion of england sir
thomas beckett
you haven't gotten to know
right from utah
this program
ah so st anselm of canterbury fascinating complicated man cause he's on he's now moving with the west away from this of early medieval interested biblical view it's a substantial tipple
logical liturgical biblical it's all kind of one glorious trinitarian history and he's getting into scholastic analytical one of the key influences action in belief was translated key such as aristotle
sandwich and raped the over it's be left at it was a new things
mr should stick her all that new jersey
skies but are rewarding this conspiracy and ah
so and so he has great enthusiasm about made response rate since god created us it changes the stayed out of its most up
rigorous employment to the glory of bad but that's quite a different current and the platonic i don't know how many if you were present at a father always lecture on the painting helps but rafield hands high with much anyway in the one of the of the ups
he could test that needs your plato's walking down the pointing up in aristotle's putting down there there's some truth to that that aristotle is in touch with concrete this specific be up and plato tents were to return forms as well both of these three some some some extremely complicated character plus he's involved in all
kinds of ongoing battles with the kings so it's all involved as archbishop of canterbury that the political yearns for the cloister he's quite a mellow benedictine
so mellow that he'll put you to sleep benedict awards and some texts that he's very different from peter damian in that regard but he's caught up in the middle of this feisty of battles and yes to flee at one point from inland from the king and go to italy
but in some sense we still have this kind of struggled thirty bucks to see monks come from unconfined to church
whoops n et cetera so we know movies and slipped so kind of eastern church some respects his eyes for is
so we hit viruses in the twentieth century we're up here such as on decision it was more of the science is about
chemistry australia out on psychoanalysis after all this stuff
and then
since is civil suits suits certainly in the wild each of assist this kind of attention and it's interesting to see how she lived it
with him according to what longer have a full synthesis of the christian mystery he is particularly interested in specific problems why did god become human flesh he writes a brilliant treatise on just that question
is it irrational is foolish to say that god exists is it just blind faith or is it in harmony with the deepest insights of natural human reason since again the god our redeemer is that god our creator of specific issues like that is the deal leo image intimate and more and more you'll find ya
elegy getting into specific issues and analyzing them according to kind of rigorous theoretical categories use the aristotelian team today you might use high bird or something at berkeley
but this can get so dry and for such a select group of some immediate lecture halls that you lose the whole masses of people
and then you get a split between theology of the one hand and spiritual alien in in the scripture with the gospel john you have theology and spirituality their pastoral theology anybody else but as you get into the sixteenth century you get this dramatic split just beginning here
and so you're reading something like the imitation of christ are very anti intellectual bias why concern yourself with the books of near when you can concern yourself with the word of god is kind of them i'd rather live can function know it's definition was on and on this is because theology has gotten so
abstract so scholastic working with syllogism
peter it seems to have nothing much to do with real life and so when you get into up the devotion and then the whole limitation christ comes out what's called the devotes your dare in a modern devotion but it's a different approach to spirituality in new tab in the undivided church and you already see this pair is strong
the nonsense he composes a series of prayers to saints that are very moving but you just wouldn't find the back in sixth and seventh century and up with a particular anguish about sand a particular of fear of held fire all kinds of stuff it's characteristic as you get later and later and a kind of a so
split between head and heart and this is a man who's trying to be both head and heart and somebody succeeds
oh no
oh certainly add form which you wouldn't it
this is it was it before the split
yeah what i mean is something like saying a what is it called the
well that kind of thing or you know say an our father hail mary and then st jude will look to this kind of thing for you or a
well yeah from the very beginning there's a great up veneration of of the martyrs for instance and this is because they are living the for pascoe mystery
now it's something later taken a patient is to say
we're focused on the passion of our lord that you wouldn't tend to find in eastern church because a patient of our lord his undivided from the resurrection of christ take the order of fun
our love of jesus the child jesus through their sisters dedicated to mistreat the child jesus as beautiful there's a sisters dedicated to the sacred rib of our lord of all this kind of thing it's great but it said kind of almost desecrating the mystery because we can't we no longer see out all holds together
exactly there
they got the well i would do they get partial they get very partial to popular devotions for the common people because they could no longer understand the eucharist eucharist is no longer at the heart of their spirituality at go to the eucharist can they gotta it's a mortal sin of they don't but they'll say the rosary there you know they're they're saying the rosary or the priest is up there with his back to
them in latin mumbling latin and so now that at its best in the eastern church and researchers you get all kinds of stuff too because it's something of the same problems but our liturgy and eucharist and all that is is right there you have their the saints in they're all their in the iconostasis
is focused on the christ to glory for instance
the young
the what is the way of the cross the stations in the crash when they finished with jesus in the tomb kind of thing now this is unthinkable for the ancient church this is unthinkable for the eastern church
this kind of thing
so mean
there were some
yeah right
we just

a start
a lot of problems
chocolates if you see this prayer and you get a such an indulgence kind of thing well this the finger time about a table the other to becoming a slave to marry handing over all your merits to marry and going to jesus as mary slave kind of think very interesting
characteristically you know what is its eighteenth century french up
the whole thing you're working up merits and then handing them over a slave to marry and the show have them over to jesus and jesus will have to the father you know this is pretty late this isn't exactly where to come
they have
we don't have that yeah you don't feel their before been yeah
you're my that's right look quite unstable
know things like when we look small
he said oh like this
st retailers and june two
this is very different from what you get for instance in the roofs invented it or the monastic heritage that's why now i think it and it's best that enriches the fate this can be a little too mr garrett's tickle but i think in the context of the whole and when you still keep together the circumstantial all a good man to read on this is
our father like a genie was an expert at vatican two when it was on the archetypical theological cyprian like the achievement
his ah it's also depends
he was professor of theology and something seven but he's a plasterer his theological mentions in the military he starts out with the whole trinitarian thrust of and tested market the new testament talks about trinity and it always has this trinitarian dynamic of comes from father to prices
not everything is returning to the father through christ in the spirit this is what eucharist in is this is what the doctor jekyll prayers about and then traces it in the early fathers and so it's a profoundly trinitarian haskell biblical eucharistic spirituality now again if you get into something of from our lady of
ah that kind of thing even something at it you know
the latest what is the last secrets of fun
now that kind of thing now if it's in the halls that's one thing but you get some people this is the you know the nature focus of now that's for the eastern church quite to and in the heavens mary appears and close back to the border into the second set of the full tributary mystery but of this kind
it seems to be there but here is it
distinguishing between in the that is really healthy
urgent or something in italy wrong
he comes almost primary in place out so not it's our right
our or break into the rest into the all i think so
no that's the key thing and the monastic tends to stress the substantial fool some of the modern orders stress the parts again if you become a patient must have a special devotion to calvary etc if you become up by new sister of the infant jesus it's the midst
read the infant jesus sisters the holy family it's the police family and at nazareth kind of thing and sacred the there's a sisters the precious blood etc etc
since you sit all the seats have their particular orders and particular devotions and chaplet and indulgences etc that's that comes more and more later
change mm
he can not a teacher to attack the sisters of jesus of the task of wonderful now
it's easy to get a whimsical but it's an interesting phenomenon or vatican two just read the documents of vatican two our liturgy on only revolution of liturgy says yes devotions but again in this context of the primacy and the the primacy of liturgical imt of the whole
crystal centric trinitarian
so a scene and will have a tremendous influence or major theologians also through his famous proof great theologians will affirm that delighted by it other theologians were refuse to teach bonaventure in duns scotus up are convinced a thomas aquinas is not moderns kierkegaard likes it
karl barth likes it but it's an interesting this will see hearts shorn of modern english philosopher he feels their subs substance to earth it grabs the mind
then he comes as archbishop of canterbury to italy there's the council of body against the greeks and against their heresy of denying the fuel aqui so they ask anselm hope that sense and with his brilliant mind to come up with a defense of the gop and he does and the pope says add
the council that and some come up and be part of our circle he was in some ways the pope of the other side of the globe that is the british isles so this has been quite an open door to humanism of the famous benedict in a cumulus a don't lambert baldwin said see the archbishop of canterbury is something like a patriarch in the
a west this is a way of approaching the anglican communion as sister church etc so that's still being worked on but the archbishop of canterbury back in his time was an extremely important as it should be
office the pope of the other side of the world

not patriotic see a your habits or the garlic and you in france didn't want these and he always had quite an independence and never heard of a private with the canterbury so merged with the british army
on fonts are interesting again there's a whole series of funds this is another way study it who does he mean who influences we would have us we ever strong for it's it's fascinating to come from very different backgrounds the
just sort of interesting is that
project so
you can trace each one of our thoughts through a drought interest but i know people will read that where you belong to it when he was scriptures sighted persons for also influential men in particular way frequently visited origi you can write a crazy minutes into slightly hesitant inside as the chippewa
logical in people's
someone to illnesses always this is what your analytics a smart he would scottish it does take the verse carved pieces that's their job to this says me that able to the
david's period price in a the now okay one more joshua a spooky great price and israel over to the church energy of israel i'm creating here's a very over seventy syndrome
this is the way to the small this is where to eat most scripture so some of my explorations closer to linus or in some modern
but anyway he's he's also very actress richardson
to me
with bitter from the arab spring on the sometimes
lived across the great
mississippi situation anything so are very different currents that been very different sides to him interesting life he was born in italy kind of a wild childhood then he wanders up to france and becomes a monk at the great abbey of back
and he becomes master the school and teacher there and prior and there he writes some of his key works including the posts bogey on that word to read the prologue to
and then it becomes himself abbot of deck back is re-established by in our time and has this lovely a covenant of friendship pact with canterbury cathedral it's an ecumenical thing because of was historical bond anyway he's called by the dorm king william the second and just arrived in england to ca
come and bring some of this normal civilization to this land of barbarians so he goes up there but he gets into terrible fights with the king about really has authority over the church so he has to rush off to italy etc of the pope and the key make an alliance kind of behind his back so but he is he does come back to the guys archbishop
why team that was all kinds of struggles
so let's look very briefly and then ponder it for a week and then we'll come back discussing them it is fundamental prove how many of you have wrestled with this proves know it's terms
know paper happened to greatness and i'm very inspired computer
somebody is going with some say it's strictly a limitation of faith years this small who needs and wants to explore something or the mystery of god of a very california very idea of body replies the
existence of god this is approved in this is just as his own mutation other say no evil our site that pile of stuff it's really trying to prove to atheists existence of though some are directing were suddenly it's both him that is with the larger context of face she's also expect
the were exclusive so think about that but whether it was doing he says yeah
as we
what he says in a very up an autobiographical i do not seem to know in order that have to be rather i believe in only but i know you're also say i can prove to the foolish atheists that gotta tests as as things that's what to some people seem to bother posting can
fuse methodology does not want they always doing the others say it's super smoothie or it all goes together god do we deal with his car creators so what convinces me in faith shootouts with its rigorous of them since fatalistic this mckinstry isn't convinced the man
let's call very briefly to your fundamentals of so he's has written more about putting up
iowa asked me to battalion so does garlic since this is the basic question so someone says i don't think god exists
you can find it wasn't
so his basic question is now know that you're using this word god it's not an uncensored so it's not like saying google google doesn't exist for a chicken fajitas with doesn't exist there's a word that has some content of meaning because you're using get you think it's really all you think i understand if you're living out in the dictionary there's god with that definition soup
really been so he says the first point is the word is not a nonsense word it has content
a part from she doesn't exist outside about yet just like leprechaun was included as content in the gravel dictionaries they're the only thing is yet doesn't exist outside of the hit you will be the irishman events few drinks can help
so the question is god the term drop hasn't been what is is that she was working definition of supreme me that is
nothing greater too soon
that's a working together now get to decide whether it exists out there outside or yet like wiki definition give a definition of better com
little green kryptonite finish a very clear definition week and it's not a nonsense syllable now to leprechauns exists outside the campus
what does god guy says a wildlife this let's look at next time could be a next school sort of sheba
that the younger than rich having greater to see
which not agree this right word to is
ginger and see that it's crazy that means created that's recognition he said
oh so we found this and two kids biologics and arm themselves leave of social dialogue with someone who dares to do got so is it alright plugins in this is my idea implicates you can't deny the existence of israel reality outside to hit why he
cause if it didn't exist outside because they insisted only as emotional idea it would no longer be that the dandridge that great see you can conceive of something greater and is a supreme being and accessible in their head and outside
oh so the very idea that explodes beyond the beer level of notions and ideas of humans and implies mean objectively really independently supremely existed
this isn't because it all leprechaun there's nothing new definition of that because it requires its existence word with accordance or whatever but this is the one category the very idea of which requires if records and i our thinking for denies that exists not just his head services paris right
but also in reality surrounds spain's
this is what's on grabbed and challenged for we do as i say i had this friend was agnostic atheist scientists this pull him back in pretty well some people say no it doesn't work he had addressed
oh sure an effective immediately their bodies washed between close to us than we ourselves yeah he follows investigator
and god offers a white suit cites or so it's a profoundly imminent god it's also got isn't just an idea not just a know should be the by human being it's like that were times method to
i am i ready with he chooses so this is my boys i ended up this is the one idea that require system of us an acknowledgement not that it's not just emotional level we didn't brain but that notion curse to
in reality you can't be denied
lol segment studios and
so it is a contradiction in terms to say god doesn't exist if you weren't up interesting because my god if you read some little idol so little man white year the cloud but if you need to tree he supreme be has to seats and supremes yeah
never ideas
at touch has said he would be supreme because company i conceive of a header worms friends i may have a very clear idea of five hundred dollars my pop and i could see the visualize it but that doesn't mean five hundred bucks or there but it would be better for the if it exists not only up your ass
my brother and better and they have been trigger
are we can speed so this is his famous overwatch wiki it's i say there's some philosophers who are to get them were church you are finished you know he's proven that this is a new categories and like any other category that if you rigorously to get serious with new epic voyage and sword he seems my
i thought if you take seriously these ideas in the world hit before us with a wonder in all or god before forces to itunes
because of god decreed and did enable us in the white of asked to see that even very category of god leads us if we go away with it up to reminisce about version
and sort again so begins in prayer and they shall see the full law illuminating up this thing is there a way to prove to the nucleus pulposus the enemy it's filled with annual regatta reaching audiences
so it's a fast fastening on more times there's one will see this or even just great
something like this kind of rigorous mind what to do find in discussing that a buddhist tradition media
for traditions and other current him doomed for a very rigorous empirical a weren't still it kind of anti intellectual think we've inherited out at up
had tied on scholastic
experience but it may be made up getting back to with the whole house petroleum issue for a fish mother separate is for me i'm i'm i'm just but also by and the rediscovering with is
reducers sometimes a characteristic are we affirm today the body
some suspicion that species
father him
i make he is
is adamant up that reason has led to give consideration to this definition
ah what a be suddenly his reason that bringing him up their older he could perhaps the gift of a starting to germany
well there you are well with have a collision
well let's address this i think serbian and some won't say it would be true because we can only understand truth which is lived in god's truth from god's light so even if seen a little truth to tweak was for that's true that's in the light garbutt able to switch all race in that sense
so it's never just i sit down and player so it's never the trustful age and i do it on myself by myself independent go because it's all sustained in a woman like all my experiences i say with this friend college he'd been an orthodox and on away was a physicist and now science was all but he says
give me a proof this is just something totally irrational you're into is there are no way you can challenge me at the ground
for oxygen so i tossed as as a person was a rational thing can shoot on it for weeks it became a dinner break out orthodox so
for some people are just interested in kind of a supply of gig and it's stressing
know thomas aquinas is not convinced but he says there's and yoga journal of passage from the well i did have in the level of reality can never made that passage
i may have the clearest most distinct idea of a falstaff as shakespeare was such a vivid image and all step when we weren't able to even person i spent three years of college and perceptive that's fine that doesn't prove it false step ever existing soil this is at and such as probably like
one exception of this category bucket by its own inner mean she should part in with fires issue of knowledge that it's not just motionless such as an idea but it's an agenda corresponds to have shifted translation
yeah this reality
yeah i can take supreme being seriously we'll just see the worst then start with me what is implicated by same really hundred constantly supremely be one of the only get you only know shortly
that is not so free
so true honor for me he would protect consumer the audience and then we'll see other dimensions are getting to the the bush years in itself you can read those options you want to talk about
in the better for the damage you've had this
when was an elastic changed
not good
facing have a principle it is because the abuse of a thing was modeling shoot mostly by that any person performances in prison
actually you create