The whole thing. So we were thinking maybe this model. So, maybe Anglican lauds. Again, the Anglicans as a church have had a laud service, right, from the time of the Reformation. And then the Holy Cross have worked out their laud service. It's rather longer and fuller than ours, but with two readings from Scripture and an added canticle and things. And then maybe typically Roman Catholic commodities, vespers. We thought for vespers, instead of producing something who knows what in English, to utilize as much of the liturgy used here as possible. Just to sort of transport it there and share, since you've done so much work and worked it out. And Don Bruno says he has no objections if we sort of... And Don Lewis doesn't either. Apparently all the copyright things, all that hasn't been done. So we have to be a little careful. But this is just a first idea. I don't know what we'll do, but it's a possibility. So, other things.

[01:04]

What are the probabilities of the number of people who would participate from both sides, if you were to move into another location? If anybody else would come from a commodity, then who would be there to join the Holy Cross? Size is decisive. Right now there's quite a pinch, because we're sort of in the door. We are in the dorm, the top floor of a dorm. They've taken over a whole section, and they have a door there. And they have... Each man has his private room, and then they have a kind of a community room, and they have their own kitchen. They eat breakfast and supper up there, and then they take lunch down in the school refectory. Now, the idea is as we come in, I'll be in another dorm, but it's about two minutes across the way. That's no problem. That's where Innocenzo is now. But the idea is, as rooms become available, to move over to where they are and to push the door down. Apparently, there's no problem about that. Now, we think, on our Roman side, and we haven't yet even begun to discuss this with Roy,

[02:07]

that it would be good to get under the same roof and off campus. Because if you're on campus, the monastic witness is a little thin, as you say. Uh, you sort of blend into the academic community, and you seem like... And that was my first thinking, to see how you could learn. Because when you're there, you look like a student. It's a very, I don't know, is it something casual, relaxed, lack of atmosphere, you know, that it's not conducive at all. Yeah, so this is a problem. I think it's closed there. So it's not a big thing. It's closed. It's very... It's closed in, you know. The students are all around all the time. So that's an issue. I asked Sister Mariah, who is their Anglican nut sister, who's kind of a mother-door mother, when she was at Camaldoli, she was coming back from a pilgrimage to the Holy Land. I said, what will be the real problems that we'll encounter? She said, space and money. These two, nothing on the level of theology or liturgy or...

[03:10]

And this is a real problem. So we, talking over with Enochenzo, we already are thinking of getting off campus. And as I say in the letter, he's talking about when our home in Marine County is given. Now, Louis has been looking like crazy for houses, and we've already gone twice, and Roy has come once and looked over, and then another of their monks came to see this last house. The last house was in Berkeley, and it has 12 rooms. But who comes and how many comes, I think how much room we'll have is decisive. Certainly on the Anglican side, there's much interest. The Holy Cross people are always quite interested in ecumenism, and now their major effort is with the dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church. We, Camaldolis, have had a tremendous influence on them. They're now slowly moving towards adopting the rule of St. Benedict. They have a hermitage, one of their monks, St. Romuald, etc. But the whole thing, so the whole dialogue is important for them.

[04:14]

So lots of them would like to come sooner or later to the extent that they can. Another wrinkle is they have this big motherhouse in West Park in the forests. It is in real economic difficulties for the heating problems. And they have their huge, the mass of their monks are there. They have decided they now have to move out of there, keep the motherhouse, but with a little tiny reduced crew. So all these other monks were going to have to move out. Well, California is going well, etc. So several would certainly like to come to California. So on our side, there are several at Camaldi quite interested. Here, again, it's the manpower problem. Camaldi does not have a surplus of formed monks who can simply go. There's a shortage of people to do all the things that have to be done. But one monk, a good friend of mine, he's this year starting to study English formally. He's been studying. So this is a kind of sign.

[05:16]

He explicitly wants to come for a good period. But at least six at Camaldi, in one way or the other, have told me they'd like to come sooner or later for a period or a shorter period, a longer period, a period of at least four or five or six months. There is also a young layman in Italy, son of a very wealthy industrialist. But he's been in England. He speaks English perfectly. He would like a period in California. And he's thinking about a monastic career. He's extremely career. He's very interested in ecumenism. So he said he might want to come next year. So there's all sorts of little things like that. But what kind of house? We've already started discussing. And where? Innocenzo is so enthused about this monastic witness to GTU that he would like it quite close to the campus. The house we looked at in Berkeley, I think, was quite beautiful.

[06:16]

And it was built for a convent. And it has its own chapel and private rooms and 20 rooms, $500 a month. No, not 20, 12 rooms, $500 a month rent. But so the financial issue, everything is wrapped up. Finding a benefactor, financial issue, what houses are available. You know, Censo would rather like a standard, just a house house sort of right across the street from the campus sort of thing. The campus is sort of quietish. As you get into the campus, it can get quite quietish and lovely. But an urban monastery is not quite like being out in the desert or something. Other questions, comments? Would new candidates be formed here in your community, your own candidates? This is a very interesting question.

[07:17]

The model we're working on now, so a joint community, so sort of two communities under one roof. In what sense two and in what sense are they sharing? Certainly, juridically, certainly for the foreseeable future, it would be two communities, each with its own superior. I think this is the direction Kamaldoli is tending. As I say, I haven't had time to work this out. I sent quite a long tract to Roy with all the different models and things. He says, well, let's talk this over one thing at a time sort of thing. He might be right. So I don't know what they're thinking of. But certainly, we would fight for a certain juridical autonomy for the foreseeable future, but a kind of a spiritual sharing and converging, to the extent possible, obviously, for the divine office. Now, for the formation of monks, since it's such a small house, and just at the beginning, what usually happens there is that the monks go to the mother house, that is, Italy. There, of course, you get into language problems.

[08:21]

So it's one of those things that have to be worked out. I think it's good, the sharing with Kamaldoli. And also, I think it's good that Kamaldoli is thinking of sharing also in this direction, of sending people here, not just... Because up to now, it's just been in the sense of clerics from here going there. At the most, they've sent superiors here, which isn't quite the same thing. So they're looking for the possibility of being able to send monks to... Sort of four months of simple professed to California, maybe for a year for theological studies, and perhaps spend a summer up here, if this is permitted or thought-wise, this sort of thing. These are people who have had their novitiate at the hermitage. The man they're thinking of, not Victor, but Vincenzo, is a very good man. Now, as I say, this is a question we haven't yet dealt with. I think there are questions you have to deal with as you come up to concrete, because it's fascinating, all the problematics, etc. But, for instance, if there's no one else there,

[09:26]

if there's no young candidate coming, a Roman Catholic, if he's an Anglican, there's no great problem, because they have their house of formation and this sort of thing. Yeah, that's... They do more or less what we do. They have a big central motherhouse, except they lack the hermitage there. Their hermitage is down in South Carolina. Where there's quite a richer liturgical life, etc., than outside. They have a series of little urban monastic communities, one up in Toronto, one in Manhattan, one here. Then they have the retreat house at Santa Barbara. I don't know if anyone here has been there, but that's quite a lovely... Some have thought that if we're going to tie into an ecumenical house, that would be another possibility. It certainly would be available to us, so to speak. But that's much more separated and much more monastic in a kind of a traditional model. Now, our San Gregorio in Rome is also fairly informal.

[10:32]

Houses where people are studying tend to get that way, because the studies can be demanding. It's hard to follow a full monastic regime and a... This sort of thing. So, Innocenzo wasn't at all that worried about the informal. He thinks, we'll have to explain this, etc. But I don't think he can have a house of formation. Ah, that might... Oh, yes. That's good. One destroying the other. Sure. San Gregorio is not a house of formation by any means. No, that is... An interesting model for you to look at, in terms of just kind of living together, setting a group, like how little brothers and sisters do in San Gregorio. I've heard from various sources and I fully agree that they are a monastic group in the city. And you've got two or three people like that, four people at the most. They have to live, in terms of a couple of them going out, working in various kind of arrangements.

[11:36]

How do you maintain a certain tone of spirituality in that kind of environment, without it becoming a fraternity, kind of, I mean fraternity and constant fraternity. Sure. Or just a casual arrangement. So, you know, there's a kind of tonality that's got to be maintained. How do you do that? Something from the move of others. You can't do it, I think, having an unserious view of life, your dynamic of that, of people living close together, and things like that. I think it's very good. I visited the little sisters of... which is the same thing in Rome. One of them is a good friend of this, Andrea, who would like to come here. That is to Berkeley. I thought extremely contemplative atmosphere. And very serious. And also very, very urban.

[12:37]

That is that they don't... One of the things of Mother Teresa, they're right in the middle of Rome, but they could be out in the forest somewhere, because they have an extremely rigid cloister, etc. No one ever gets in, etc. Whereas the little sisters approaches, the door is always open, but not up in the chapel area sort of thing. And they were working with the poorest of the poorest. But one thing, as you say, one goes out and works and sort of sacrifices himself. Now, the Holy Cross at Berkeley have a bit this model. One of their monks there is a professional nurse in psychiatry. And he's found a job up there at the hospital in San Francisco. He has a hundred people under him, and he earns a very good income. Now, he is the source of income for the whole community, the main source. Then, so... And as I say, he's a very kind... Now, the prior is really a man of prayer. So I think the tone thing,

[13:39]

I think it might also be that it's whether you can realize it for the whole community. The whole community is tending there. But I think if you have two or three people who are deeply committed and sharing, etc., I think already you've got something. Now, I know also I had a good talk with Father Roy on contemplation, is it? I know that he is there. That is, for him, the whole sense of monasticism is interior prayer, etc. So he looks forward to this experience also for this side of it, not just the ecumenical, but to bring this contemplative dimension, to strengthen it, etc. But I think, yeah, there are various models. It's the... So the formation is very important. When you speak of the brotherhood of Jesus or his sisters, they have a way of life, you know, that's very remarkable. It comes from the Lord, and they have a very, very outstanding, very...

[14:40]

I've heard this, I have met, you know, it seems they have the same home, and they all produce. I mean, the bad ones leave, but the one you meet, you know, they carry something with them. There is something about them that's very, very humane, and at the same time, very religious. You know, they are kind of... All of them, all those I have met, you know, in France or all in Montreal, they were very, very good. There was a lot of good ones. But to make an assumption, because I was there, you know, it's just not, you know, visiting. But having, you know, you don't have... I hope you don't repeat, but the impression I got, you know, for the short time, it's just like students who are there on the campus, and they meet in the church in the morning and at night. Because that was, you know... Oh, at Berkeley. At Berkeley. It takes time to find out they are religious, you know. Oh, yeah. I know what I'm saying. The domestic training is not like ours. It's not the same. I would like to, you see, they don't live, you know,

[15:41]

as much as we do, maybe, and it doesn't seem to be, you know. Well, I've been at their mother house. I know they're, for instance... You know more than I do. Yeah, there's a poverty that's stricter than ours, for instance. They have a common room for clothes. And many people don't, you know, you wear the blue jeans, then you take them back, their sort of thing. And you, oh no, you worship the thing, and it all goes in the common room. They also have assignments. It's very rigorous. It's certainly more rigorous than the Monastery of Comaldi, which isn't saying much. Um, well... It's better not to interpret it. It takes a little things to prove to yourself that you're a religious, that you're strict, you know. And on the other side, you're very open, you know. That's where we'll see the difference, you know. If you want to be a religious, well, you need, so you need silence. You need certain things. You want certain things, but at the same time, that shows, you know, that you prove to yourself that you are a monk or something. But on the other side, it could be very open, very open mentality. Although I think that for us, it would be no longer, you know.

[16:41]

Uh, well, this might be. Um, as I say, as you go down of... It's hard to get in the souls of people, but I know that, um, that Holy Cross has produced, as I say, some very contemplative people. This man, uh, I showed him to Father Joseph, et cetera. But, um, he was a man of real interior prayer, and they had them be Thomas. He spent a whole year in England, the kind of a contemplative, aramidical experience. Um, now, as for the broad open, um, some of them are, some of them are much stricter than we are. Um, some of our people are wide open, et cetera. So, um, it may be that New Camaldoli as more homogeneous, but more unified in this respect than Camaldoli and this sort of thing. But we visited their mother house. I've been to the majority of their houses now, Toronto, the mother house, Manhattan here, and Santa Barbara years ago. But the thing that struck the general,

[17:42]

Emanuele, me, you know, Cenzo, and several of them have been at Camaldoli, was the kind of the common spirit. We felt much more at home at their mother house than we did in many of the Benedictine Roman Catholic houses that we visited going, for one reason or another. Um, and not because, um, their mother house was more open, but it was, you know, and the liturgy is very, very seriously done. So I don't know. Another thing I would stress is the mother house of the monastery of Camaldoli, back in Italy, it tends to be very happy and family and, um, the hermitage has quite a different atmosphere. You haven't had that much contact with the people from the hermitage, and that's good. For instance, the master of novices at the hermitage, Franco, is a real man of prayer. Bernardino, again, is a very... Now, that's where the formation goes on at Camaldoli, and I think you're right. It's very important to have a good formation. If our people were to go to Camaldoli, they would have a very good formation.

[18:44]

Now, the Camaldoli spirit in Italy is a kind of, um, then to permit variety. And one person afterwards might not want to live a form of monastic life that's intensely silent, solitude, but might be more studies, for instance. Now, the style of our general is not to try to push him back into the hermitage sort of thing, but to offer various spaces, saying in the whole history of monasticism, there have been various ways of working out a monastic vocation, this sort of thing. So in the Camaldolis, you can find all sorts of things, and in the Holy Cross, you can find all sorts of things. But I think their best men in contemplative prayer are somewhat analogous to our best men, and I think they're worse, they're somewhat analogous to our worst. Now, for me, the English word for trying, I have to say, you see, it's only when you're in it that you can see how it can be worked out. But no, I don't need to be there. You're not coming?

[19:47]

I'm all for it, I'm all for it. But I need a vacation. So, good. So, thank you.

[20:08]

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