History of Christian Spirituality

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Part of "The History of Christian Spirituality" class




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nowhere to be available
we might begin with prayer
come holy spirit fill our hearts know minds and the words of our mouth from limitation of our heights
it's like the mystery of christ this we asked the same christ our lord amen
so just to review a bit yesterday a history that's what was what we were focused on yesterday it seems to me out of the discussion this various levels of this came out there is our history and inner and maybe we need both of them and
there's personal history and community history national history world history
i have my own spring intimate history year for that there's also a family history my family this family here of all sorts of levels as whether there's a human person there's the phenomenon of history
ah their secular history and there's also a secret or rather salvation history
you're just ordinary point of view of history and then there's god's mighty acts in special areas of history that render those particular areas some house of the gun for our salvation
and you got to do more with that but it's a very important for our faith the way the gospel of matthew begins remember just against trying to set kind of the historical context
the book of the generation of jesus christ the son of david the son of abraham abraham begat isaac isaac began jacob jacob begat judas it's is a very mysterious way for religious book to begin instead of of of meditation techniques for on
mister gotcha core doctrines or something this generation of people to set the context and then the key moment in the creed of crucified under pontius pilate this is not kind of some sort of disincline it mister gotcha goals i'm cyclical sacrifice but it's the
that time in that period in that place and that's the whole historical things so what did we mean by institute something like the negatives is that it's non cyclical non reversible and it says
cumulative dynamic of human events and this can be good at the personal intimate level that can be in the our level is creating a level of a christian salvation history
reality of history shapes to remarkable extent our own point of view our own most fundamental options i don't know if you're to recycling what would your life be like had you just happen to be born sake of
oh two thousand years ago in china or even today in china or today in india or you see were born in a certain context a certain history our own family has its own history our own nation has its own history of secular and religious and we get from
i'm that history our language our values our point of views sometimes we can jump histories phenomenon with conversion
ah so we are formed and shaped and conditioned by our history up to now but if we insist on the freedom of you person not saying this capacity to shape and form our future history and it's this dynamic this tension of what's already been in our conditions and where we can go from here
here this is the he would venture sort of but it's not an absolute freedoms yeah i can't suddenly put myself in third century india or fourth century france we see i can't send me make myself a napoleon misses the problem of but
such of people with severe psychological problems i have to move on from where i'm at sort of one step at a time i can run your beep or walk but i'm here because of everything behind
it's lit up from here i can do all sorts of things but relatively speaking
now this is how come it's script so salvation history
each of us has his own personal salvation is to sort of render this a little concrete in a little existential i think of that i think it can be a useful exercise spiritually every known and to reflect upon my own history our own history this a basic an obligation of anamnesis of remember
during a obvious constantly telling a history of remember a wizard all the things i've done for you the past many the songs he's great supply purse or simply a review of all gods acts in salvage she's so us we should remember and a part of our basic problem is that were often for
grenfell like israel god has acted in our history and we tend to forget so it can be useful exercise things like a journal a spiritual journey
for subconscious on a page summing up were where have i come from
when i was coming from a italy here and i found it just interesting to read like all the places i've lived in my life really make the time you just shut them down think about the x basic experience in that place the basic growth moment
bc greece to use a traditional and we should basic problems of that movement than what came after that i didn't come out of that how did you represent a change of moving forward maybe moving backward which is the list places i've been or to list friend sort list what i've been involved in basic points of view
you basic values in central you can do it on one page with all sorts of levels for the most physical to live and it's for interesting and then their cage come some kind of an anonymous is that a summing up of my own hopefully salvation history it's the thesis of your father's had my own history is a key
continuation of salvation history and so that i have to read my own history in the light of submissions to so on is precisely working up a sensitivity to histories of their deepest level that i think up we can understand more the or the arctic of the of the scriptures and perhaps understand
mission dp ourselves because the temptation and new the contemplative is to try to switch into some kind of our temporal
space where uptime just has nothing to do not an end but also divine times that were out of not just step
what of cairo's he's decisive moments of our own salvation history what's the word but kind of spin chromosome chronos is just the sort of meaningless running on of events but christians jews are convinced there's not just crumbs there is cairo's
now we can move onto our second keyword spirituality and to ask what we mean by this
this is the other issue is not any kind of history we're doing is not a history of the united states it's not a history of of byzantine art it's not a history its history of spirituality would mean by that
and here we get into very interesting debates about whether this word is very fortunate word maybe it conditions as maybe it's limits us and constricts us to even false understandings about
we are now in the old philosophical area up in the era of linguistic philosophy you heard about linguistic philosophies
philosophers now say if we want to get a handle on our disputes nor problems etc of oftentimes we can get much light on them it will just analyze very carefully the language you use sometimes our debates aren't debates about reality but the simply about language
did we go through the boat going around the both thing
i don't do
well this is the classical example that a linguistic philosophers use of and it comes out real life when linguistic philosophers englishman sir to englishman fighting fiercely about this problem
cv and cover the spanish amount of a new ships so here's this on
that's here's this huge spanish ships address this little positions and the spanish it as much more powerful
the firepower so what the spanish is trying to do is swing around and pulled parallel to the english and so it can give it a broadside just blasted on the water your english it knows this trip so it's tried to maintain a classical key position of keeping its proud
pointed toward us that so as this spanish galleon wars around this english ship shift signs access to keep its point always pointed towards a spanish girl and the spanish guy and finally ends up selling of sir turn around
this is clear what has happened
now the two gentlemen were debating very ugly whether the spanish galleon can back sailed around the english it
the wedding system appears they've had sale clear around there said no heaven sailed clear around and so the refining away
it's similar with the capital for this know
no my that's is my perspective one because the relative positions of to votes out of change
the with their relatives is to learn out was rather upset at it didn't sail around you do
is anyone prepared to defend the opposite
because capacity
just a poor
so this is what happened to see
now what the philosopher said is that this is an argument just around about zip up the word around but at least
strike if by around you mean it's been to the east the north as west in the south and described a circle about that it has been around if you mean that has been in front of the ship to this side behind it into this site it has no
i've been around
so what the philosopher points out is this is not an argument about the facts are bare both were in perfect accord with what had happened to the configuration of the two shits
the argument seemed a real art and and see that's an ambiguity is the fighting jersey and seems to be there are arguing about whether to see on your own you never there are already about what is the meaning of around and in cash like so many english words it's a fairly ambiguous word
and it can be either river in different contexts so once they saw that everything they're all disputes of the damage if you want to say by around but it was to the east and north into the rest of the south than it didn't go around in that sense if you want to me it was infertile
our to decide behind the and it didn't go to iraq
now these philosophers say maybe many medieval disputes and in children with angry bitter are basically about clarifying words we use see how works conditioners in surgery
here's a sprint the ducks grew up at berkeley verona
and we started a dialogue and the correspondence now it's really built up several bettors but i think at one point we almost got into this sort of thing i was talking about
the model of sister churches and out of this can grow up a space for a pluralism of
liturgy in spirituality and central and she and i it was a long night and i just referred to progress and once and shooting in your letter back twenty times used as pluralism word she was furious by it she says this will get us into irrelevance cemetery so from that point on and could have gone into a whole dispute pluralism yes for pluralism
in an ice chest to that i was talking not about doctrinal purism which was from big me but about the illogical and spiritual pluralism and it seemed to me if there's any church of churches where there's a lot of the is precisely the orthodox churches that punches and yes and that level if by pluralism you simply want to be
the pluralism of spiritual emphases source pluralism of religious art or theology okay if we could have gone on for letters about pluralism is good pro is and sped up if you can clarify
in what way you're using language that can often and solve a lot of problems often language gets us into ambiguities you see
a language can sometimes instead of clarify and be a bridge it can sometimes be the cause of disputes and language is this clear
so now we've got this word spirituality we usually assume i think it and it really reflects and expresses very well we're about but some people say book it's a very very loaded word it's very constricted it's implicitly dualistic you got yours
spirit and you've got your body remember the whole a platonic being of the spirit it's a kind of a prisoner in the body and prison so the whole thing is to break out of that body well it would seem perhaps that spirituality is a word summing up the venture of within christian thing that is
implicitly platonic or dualistic or manichaean in its whole emphasis that is if i want to really sincerely lid the christ's ministry i've got to get more and more more spiritual and less mess
real and physical and historical it's centrum there might seem to be that is this a problem and you see the a the accusation against the word
so something we should even drop and try to come up with some other term or series of terms living the christ mystery or of baldness and faith a recent bereavement that of and there is so this discussion going on
another will vary as you mentioned battalion
almost anywhere in the united states now as an issue is a language and women involved the all acquisition of sexist language of women are now saying that if you look carefully at your language you'll see that it's waited on the side of the meal and against the fee me on this is something about which we
usually don't even think but when you have one of these women around she's starting with become very aware of your language terms like statesmen or a congressman or chairman you know
women were allowed to vote just recently that it won't become kennedy so it was just assume that that the check and congress would be a male so is very
so often we refer back god loves man and the salvation of mankind and in one of these people will say are what are you doing excluding women are you saying that the see the the category man's another one of these famous ambiguous categories and can refer to the mail man woman or a
for to all of humankind
now women as quite you take a term that can be exclusively male and assume they can serenely sum of all of humankind
this is the problem of for instance very dangerous using the fourth canon or hundred and six because it's loaded with the so called sexist language and now there's a whole movement to change modify this language the anglicans have a counterpart of before it can but they've gone through very carefully and with man had gone astray
yea and god so loved man or way to it's mad mad mad men these feminists say well are we just left out or just assumed
sort of petrology up at berkeley's who's a very excellent is just by chance a sister and she's very interested in it
roll and the place a woman in the early church we talk about the fathers of the church until the fathers of the desert and with are know mothers with their know
where is women's and she's is very if you look at some of the desert literature the woman can be sanctified to the extent that she becomes manly the whole concept of view to some
and so she she works through some of these texts since his to the extent that you become you know almost grow a beard at that point
there is some chance for you so any rate that's another whole issue of but the problem of language of do you have any feedback had that are you serving with that
it is an issue out there i just wanted to communicate and sent them instead of and challenge so
spirituality is it necessarily dualistic isn't necessarily platonic etc
any idea that opinions reflection sons
know a christian spiritual so that's out there are some spiritual outstanding now we do have that conditioner that's important than qualification so janet think of it as a way that the holy spirit is as it were not
you know what i see those over to under that what i didn't ask her
this is an important breakthrough on we're talking basically about the holy spirit so christian spirituality as to do with this a dynamic of elma of god objectively the real spirituality is that will experience so this might be a way to defend this term
and this is the race this is a basic a response second
so it's not a dualistic my spirit against my body sort of thing but it's referring to this fact that it is the spirit who is the source of our own up
demonisation holiness affiliation central
and this simple ever talk about the spirit in the body and central
no and until we get to that point we have a spirit battling against the by units or the flesh right right
what is the spirit there is a the for time he came through
read what
there's an ambiguous it

right when i read the exigency that a ailment there when it's not the holy spirit our spirit is the whole human person body and spirit of tending towards god and flesh sharks isn't the physical it's the whole person
to the extent that that person's fragile and under the tendency of sin and so moving away from
ah god so this is important is entirely different mindset than the platonic even though they're using the same words here again you get into the ambiguity that can come from language and so sometimes a very careful analysis of what's behind words in that particular historic culture and
what's behind the neck and clarify great deal but it would seem that what have all had us in mind is quite different so
and then he talks about spiritual people he's writing to more spiritual message we should all be pneumatic sheet more spiritual spiritually mature so this is how someone like booty a will defend the term spirituality and it's really quite fitting and by biblical and not at all
platonic or
or many or anything like that so that we can talk with gusto about spiritual but understanding it right and understanding that can be ambiguous brats has been in the past
it's a very late term of especially used in the plural it second just to about one hundred years ago they started talking about spirituality ease in france but even the term to talk about me that's a deep spirituality this is i think it's just two or three centuries old at the leaders
but still it seems to work taken in the context of but biblical theology
what do we mean by christian spirituality then
what are we talking about it we say we're going to have a course about mathematics we did they need our area if we see we're going to talk about zoology and cetera
what are we talking about every time at spiritual what were we excluding what are we including what is the specific focus
who's eager to give a definition effects of our fields
henry how would you define christian spiritual

eight countries
it is so like a separate product
that's why we didn't think in terms of spirits are inherently spirit

i suppose generally
he was just be the outward movement
and was gone
yeah exploration
how was come
certain there's a and
and also concerned the weight way that
so we've got man and god remember are sexist language it's we've got the human person and god and we've got some kind of attempt to move towards and the whole issue of means that because of a person
human person some might want to say human person who insist to individualistic isn't it but the whole community to you can start enjoying it daughters the debates you but i think the basic components are there it's focusing on the the dialogue with communion nor development
history of god or some are you to get those three elements to get those three two one
family a human person in god and getting them together
or is it is would a class on spirituality basically be about what about methods and techniques of prayer of purification and sanctification would basically be about psychological state sense of up in prayer and in advance
me towards god this is all very debate it if you get into brigades from because there have been books on spirituality there's simply i'm sort of this team techniques there have been books on spirituality to been very careful of descriptions of psychological states as you presumably move from one
one mentioned to another or something and
i think the monastic heritage that i i think of
once to insist that it's not just that and you want fear a whole theology you aren't here the whole objective component so this can't be totally cut off from theology or job for instance but it certainly doesn't want to ignore the whole issue of a possible ways of moving to
towards god or possible ways at least have been aiding the barriers between the god etc but of in centrism to do reflect what do we mean when we use these words of spirituality and my spirituality in our spirituality etc up again this is that contemporary endeavored to take our words much more seriously in
analyzing what they might imply what they don't imply et cetera
christian spirituality and specifically the history of it i think it's professed fascinating this is a very very recent discipline
if you go into a library look up history of art or history of gotten our history of the pope's or you'll find lots of books if you look up history of christian spirituality if i'm extremely few
even at berkeley which has hundreds of thousands of volumes there are three or four volumes and even of
people who try to work up a whole bibliography they can only get a very few texts itself discipline and quotes that's come up just to the last hundred years and this is a fascinating i think interesting to ask wine and
if you want to study theology for instance if you want to study christology normally you doing also historically you find out what the new testament says about christ but the father said about christ with the council said about christ you see this is a real component in any study of the
geology of christ and lizards extremely irritably scholastic and stick nerves a so called positive dimension but usually today in any school you don't have just the speculative but you had the historical approach and so when you move through the whole history of christian reflection on the theology of christ
until we've had histories of the doctrine of christ around for quite awhile we have lots and lots and lots of them or shows a them if you pick up a book on christology to live a whole section on the history of this doctrine and christ in that document requests but if you pick up any book on spirituality
he will you find a history of christian spirituality they're very very often you want and we we can have whole libraries of books on spirituality where there's little or no reference to
the heritage of christian spirituality to what how they were praying and living the price mr in the new testament in the of early fathers in the later fathers and children

oh no


i just said

you're gay if you're going to do it also i would think you'd want also the historical component of a spirit in the bible and spirit in i'm right
ah yes the whole it is christian spirituality so the the whole relation of christ and vanilla minds and issue here and you do get into real theological issues as soon as you have any is basically a trinitarian issue also the trinity you would there is attractive christology try
them to trinity at a u-shaped nematology coincidentally ah
nablus get sufficient space but also their i think you'd want a history that but i think we have so many books on spirituality we pick up and there's not even an attempt to get into spirituality to some kind of historical in a deeper sense of survey of the christian approach to
his future and this is interesting
we might ask why that i think we would assume that we can't just improvise here and now up of new ontology or improvise that theology of grace here to make it up now without reference to what the church said and them but i think likes of christians would almost think i got to
you know get together a spirituality for myself this sort of thing without that much worrying about this whole lot and the whole hundred a hundred light not just touch certain little areas of interest me i feel very strongly the devotion of the sacred heart or something where does that occur in the who
a history of christian spirituality or the from the programmability a are coming from the prime and emotions and prayers and but grid is it fit into the larger picture of fuck christian spirituality
i might be an interesting issue and cause this opens up the whole like medical issues are christians per trolley in the west in the east before the system after before the break in the west with a reform after and centrosomes it's a challenge it's a all task i
ah if we do it now
this kind of an endeavor
grats we can't entirely ignore
the modern sensitivity to historic method
that is i think the fathers in fact when they look spirituality they implicitly if the a lot least did it through a history of christian spiritual this when they wrote of track it was usually basically a meditation on the word of god and through the other fathers that did read
i'm leaving now cyprian prince and some our lord's prayer and only is writing his own spirituality as a meditation on the new testament our lord's prayer and working through to julian's commentary on the lord's prayer he doesn't cite him with football since interpreter we help me just draws in him on the modify
vice in every nominee quotes him without modifying him every other newbies him out but there's implicit tracing ones history there but i think we did come to a moment in the life of the church where that was no longer done and there was almost a tendency to create new spiritualities up without this
this of effort and said
so i think we have to get back to that and if we do it i think we have to do it
bragg some
ah some of the country on the walls concrete buildings carlisle yet
note that the frenchman who was apt a southern civil rights or is debugger yeah he said he tries to be that the monk all the way and also the modern man in using of the best of of the scientific method but using it in the realm of monasticism
it's interesting synthesis he's tried to put together not to omit the wonder the other on so the contemporary interest rates is on manuscripts is this really the writing as we have it from the author and the whole good for instance that today's
unless you
we got her story and song and it's beautiful and center and suddenly realize it isn't as it came from her hand there's these hundreds and hundreds of modifications me by her a superior and another priest within the inevitable or contemporary interest is what really did she write and what really did
superior and what really it might be the final product is even more edifying and illuminating the first but we at least want to know
and we want to know then what's the particular gifted torres when the particular gift for priors what's a particular gift to that other priest and how did it all fit together that's a typical contemporary concerned i don't think you can eliminate
be weren't i i don't think we can live hips
france pseudo delicious of all his writings of the whole middle ages east and west it was assumed that he was the disciple of st paul when i asked for important if that were the case
if it's not the case if he's writing in the fifth or sixth century that's very important to understanding the place the point of view the context the proposal of that writing you see so if you take the historical things series and you do have to do it with a certain rigor and you can't do it just kind of but
a romantically or rubbed you have to come to terms with manuscripts and interpolations and real authors and influences fonts all these issues
this is and this is a real problem with working with many many of the fathers so many many of the medieval documents from the instead from the west we just recently discovered that some of the documents that seem to be absent
bernard not really a and bernard but someone else in this whole business so it's a constant here the scholar comes in and hear the whole area of but the modern world and its best perhaps comes in and i think it does help us also to growth not immediately you don't go directly from a new insight as to the of author
a suitable mrs to a new level of sanctity you can do the one without doing the other at all but i think his contemporaries we don't want to do the other without doing a bit of the sweat of the one a bit and that might be a kind of a contemporary form of asceticism
and that's always been around in one form or another bead for instance writing the history of the uk she was very concerned with what manuscripts what were their authority where the authentic had surgery he did a remarkable amount of work as a monk and inserted into his whole spirituality and
him to serve god his depletion
comments questions her just one way around you mentioned the virus image that craze read probably sunlight as spirit and spirituality it is at work also in converting perhaps the original
to what we perceive as awesome message
that's precisely
and here's a whole issue also it's scripture this is very important we start talking about q to you started talking about oral traditions that are before the written form and then you get into the issue where was a spirit in pew and as the spirit in a t an old testament where where's the spirit in them right and this is an issue
at a certain point bomb came in and said look we haven't canonized the mother prior or this he looked to be canonized torres we want to know when she wrote so again it might well be after a careful reflection of the final product is more edifying than the first but many people have been proof
family moved by the first and they had problems with the final in there are others who are find the the original terrorist thing i kidding kind of arid tough and dutch whereas the final it's very of flowing sweet and so there is that issue
but it's an issue it's typically are issue only if we go through that very rigorous work of getting back to the original manuscript
they now published a good translation of it by the way the have a carmelite do with students i see us and see you haven't in the library of it fudged a little as his said because the original document is so tough and so up so they put in paragraphs had incidents accord
to the logic of what the prior study
but they try to least to go back to torres is language but this comes up a kid again and again in of manuscripts and
studying spirituality
ah we have the pilgrim who is this pilgrimage debated
ah this is pilgrim really a kind of a rusting peasant out of russia
this is one thesis is he some kind of very sophisticated theologian had found out those who wants to teach a way of prayer using this literary genre or is he caught the peasant who has come and talk to the theologian a theologian for what he's heard as put it together
so there's a bit of the one and the other and said this is a thing is debated today i'm old sides

that's never

this is

when herman
oh life



now they're seriously blueprint there's no all sorts of ways of dialogue there's a lutheran catholic dialogue going on entrance your their best spokesman or acknowledge all sorts of things just as artists spokesman will acknowledge all sorts of bit of but they will acknowledge that we have to come to turn the whole of christian history theology spirituality
not make that weird leap over fifteen hundred years and no two thousand years so if there's if it's just try to if the mantle neutral push him as much as you can seriously into his own heritage that's one way to get him to you these days if he's just some guy
of a fundamentalist enthusiast i think you can push him as the spirit been went on strike or sleeping these last two thousand years if the spirit has been at work in the human family and the christian people of god we want to know how and when but this is taught us now
most christians are the reform of acknowledges today and it's a pretty up of course a person in the first moments of and through his yeah some of the conversion that's not always the best for time to bucks
but i'm slowly slowly if you keep up this dialogue keep at this point guard wields a submission of all humanity even those who lived in the fourteenth century in the temple etc
i think we would but also grants and things to them as our best catholic theologians are due to really had some insights about basic pauline theology we are saved by faith and for paul faith alone republicans and you do get into change now the rest of it but a great deal can be conceded to
the lutherans these things to our own best theologians and the whole thing about the abuse of on
relics this will be there's a book in your library excellent book by the catholic theologian lawrence on the reform
and he
now it has all sorts of these are all sorts of abuses and it was a canvas position and apparently what was an event dominican it was pretty with a yeah
yeah he's literally print something equivalent to put your money in a pop and as soon as it hits the bottom a soul fly out of purgatory and then
lord says there's no doc and something equivalent to that was been preached in selling these indulgences and then was a very murky they needed indulgences because it was as political pact between one noble in another to raise money or because when bishop wanted added me to give lots of money to rome and rome he did like somebody to build this
your splendid basilicas so the whole thing is burnt so if you'll get into humanism seriously to ditch fortunately there's all sorts of things you can go

the people were introduced
right right right
read about it
he didn't answer

this is a really sure how do we get outside our own perspective regarding his spirituality regarding anything but then a possibility

right he didn't i
right that might be another challenge a gift of our own modern generations this

i was never fully
it worked
it's important
one of the problems for instance with
there were more primitive kind of the protestant or the catholic or the eastern is this lack of historical sense remembered lamb with the a representative of the worst orthodox patriarch stood up and he was furious about and he set up this is against all tradition and our fathers of university talk and
cetera and
some of the anglican patrol adjusts and never quite a period
credit history of serious petrology studies lightfoot
we're a little up be used by this because sometimes we had a simplistic view of the fathers and these spirituality etc when in fact into a careful study getting credible right
virtuality this paranoia is very focused on the distinction of essence and energies and
the eastern a doctrine and therefore of
how does sustained stop the possibility of real demonisation et cetera and she's convinced at least genesis are explicitly but this has been released thesis implicitly up to know that the catholic church has to be retained systematic and perhaps heretical because it doesn't have this
to do my own writing an explicit working through the real distinction between essence of energy's is a little late i don't think it's senior and a us or in the councils of the united church sure of it doesn't seem to be that explicitly know the gospel of mark or something so i think as we come
up to work on clear headed sense of history variety development pluralism than we can a little slower in an absolute ties using it might still be that after she's done all this show still want to its systems even if it comes relatively late even if it comes on
woman in the eastern or even if it's only been proclaimed as the fee day by she said i think a couple of local councils in the east i still want to hold that it's necessary to authentic orthodox faith and thus the catholic churches is systematic if not heretical and there's not a real church and the way i
dialogue started she said that there's only one true church that's the orthodox church therefore her function it's basically missionary and i said well maybe if we get into a theology of sister churches than up it's were primarily the with trying to convert people to orthodoxy would be tried to dialogue and see if this great scandal
at the division might be overcome through dialogue so that's where the whole thing started but
historical sense as a whole different ballgame than the ah historical approached things
when they work and

yeah right


same time


yeah that newness of some francis any of it not going to look that breaker but i think not new in the sense it to cut off from the catholic heritage or known that
different from the better it can he saw them

it was horrible
and the way he justified it was scripture and the apostolic communion and all i don't want that much about francis from and or but i think of something like a kind of a renewal of
catholic religious life for instance that the year of medical dimension in his life
within those strip



i think rather have another site that historian would be aware of newness
for instance the whole business of the distinction of essences energy uses our fathers have always taught since when maybe it comes up with no
mm polite period into a little earlier and not before
now if you've got the historical my only thing is rigorously speaking to what extent inside of francis a spirit and mind to what extent did he understand himself between something new or as reforming and renewing their gp went to do come out or to the hermitage there's a little bit about it
about a the reciprocal influences between him and the from a kid should give your brown has done a great deal lameness etc
so i would sit and then there's the whole thing of these other groups enthusiasts groups in that period were drinking very very similar to francis stressing very much radical poverty are going back to the gospels without glass similar out of so the wonder is that francis is not mistaken for one of these
and that's why the church was extremely cautious because there were these they call his enthusiasm groups about and someone got off on a tangent and but i would think that the historical sensitivity would give you an awareness of real notice and real continuities and where there's a one
was it and it's very complicated without
a presuming to have ultimate truth on his
that is to say the language of causation in history is quite different from causation in physics or math or something it's very mysterious
due to represent something radically different and new in one sense in another there were luther's all the way that supports traces them they're all over the place in our own monks and what fourteenth century are pleading with the with wrong to permit the liturgy can be celebrated in the language understood it on the people at centuries
pumpkin or
when you to all of this then there's always the out
product for a product of bed
where's the spirit in on this you know use said a spirit in lutheran to them shot himself suggested we sincerely
other points know
but i go so far

why does
she was fun

they come out

she's like right now

this is authentic

did you see know
tough i think at one level yes here's the whole issue of spirituality in a similar or spirituality is in the plural
oh so that's one issue that we want to go pack to sort of you have a franciscan spirituality a dominican a
paula my spirituality a of syrian spirituality a russian it's a drink you have all these spiritual then you get the problem once a relation of the two of the various ones are they sort kind of self enclosed compartments and others will insist the whole languages languageshome you've got to took up only one spirituality which is that
holy spirit working in us to
bring us were more deeply into christ and said so
see if you go from another other you'd say there isn't a spirituality as to burst out now that's totally new it's always the perennial one spirituality
but if you go for the other of every age will need it spirituality you did every person when the to spirituality and what you do is get persons who then get together and you get this whole decisive movements you don't have just francis but you have a whole francis concurrent then moves into the life of the church
short dominican or carbine should there be some new explosion now in that sense i would think so
what theologians do now with this debate one spirituality or many of i think they are try to save
well as far as origin and foundation and kind of objectively there's only the one spiritual which is perennial which is the sprout and spirituality of greatly parliaments are efficacious or torres and is you or ignatius and that's spirituality for christians of living in the christ mystery in the spirit
going towards the father through christ in the spirit in history too much now
but because we are different persons in different ages with different needs
hermit out in the egyptian desert in the first century will have different up instruments it will be particularly useful and may be a martin luther king in a city near memphis so caught up in the whole crop of ray
system etc trying to live his christian faith they're different things will come around this sort of thing and we today living now post vatican two post vietnam post and pre lots of things in the middle of energy crises etc we might need some things it weren't around
said something i wonder what yes and let's hope that every age produces a living spirituality and the other since let's hope that there's nothing new you know the simply kind of up improvised a cut off from the continuous ongoing one heritage and
and the other common sense
had thought about the issue
a christmas
and the idea of st spirit
why christmas
you can use that language of this again as the grisly murders someone daddy and new are you know there are different spiritualities ignatius is so it's basically how you define spirituality said but certainly you have the pearl is it would have you if you defined just as different forms are different spiritualities whatever language you want to use
right back in the new testament
paul distressing one thing the primacy of fate for instance in letter to the romans james we heard last night distressing to be quite different act a works ah and you've got a letter to the hebrew spirituality and it's very liturgical and we've got high priests and holy of holies etc and you've got
other spirituality sit are quite prophetic rather james and certain

a secret
the depressions and nobody else the object right
was not
i'm with
i just
and this way applications
but he had a secret
when spirit as
in have hostess
alice jones good job
as why you get breasts
which is endings


continues note


it's a part of the are all the same
right when i was so handed this class to do where the basic methodological approaches why talk about movements primarily or persons nine sort of opted to study just persons just their writings
but still there is the other side you know francis wrote to in some sense create a movement that's part of his game plan
also you say there's something ambiguous about movements is also something ambiguous about persons you know each person has his limits as his human element becomes in sometimes ah
i find it fascinating for instance in francis francis and sets up this is going and almost in his own time you were bonaventure who's also a saint and in this current and quite quite different from francis and doing things with the big francis pull his hair out but but of interesting to find himself
the and parameters studying books and doing all those things at francis would prefer that of francis can snap them so that's the paradox but i think of what are the fascinating things is that how god works through individuals and also through because the whole and theme of starts and disciple suggest
it's not just atomistic it's you sleep there is a of in some sense of
parliament tradition perhaps or of
the egyptian no rain
benedictine some sense how to come to terms with it's very difficult
oh but there is francis here and there's been a venture here and there's a curious fact that they're both and same family

which is there's an option
a difficult for yes

there's not already

but i think really francis did something absolutely revolutionary that this whole idea of a group of religious dollar seventy percents to be monks and it goes on from there and huge cheshire would stronger as i think it's really quite startling in a the light of an eastern mindset
where you have the a kind of monk archetype and then you have laity but
and it's interesting
of it does it represent up
a confounding and a splintering or does it represent an enriching or what do you do with it but it's fascinating
a movement when sending you have someone who says i don't want to be a monk but i want to be a sentiment religious
and we want to be the that kids very fascinating
i was funny now on the incurred has in limits same spiritual
right to san francisco say
and that's as a generic spirit rather than that
definitely school that michael by like go back parking my car
it has twins are just trying to think of hours individual and spit out of the chapel
heading that way
that's an image is often used by his spiritual writers about you reach when as is road rage when as his particular piece or you have to avoid getting relativistic and sometimes you hear these hand religious the rural roads lead to the top you can get i debated fiercely with this
it's kind of kind of a buddhist in italy said for there's the destroyed up to the top and years and christian so you had to be a little careful but i think at least within the christian family weekend because a one way is christ
but you can be through in again that when one spirituality i am away to true line
but he chose his own approach in one goes through the desert when goes through the mountains and when i think that's true

his administration

the soon
the disease

re how to do
when habit changes that he is the future a fugitive
so i guess we sort of then our duty yet
can conclude thank you very much next time we'll go into those so what is the foundation of christian spirituality my thesis is it's it's a word of god i mean that's the basic text we're looking at it isn't the upper deck matter or the writings of about various or it is the word of god so you might try to think through a
how what would you do that are you an agreement not an agreement of were in the word would you look for the pillars of all the rest is going to come out of there to watch