Monastic History

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Monastic History Class, New Orders

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#set-monastic-history

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Okay, I don't know what I was thinking last week when I said we were going to do Cistercians this week, because I totally forgot about Part 18, which is the section before Cistercian, which is one of the longest sections in the entire course. So we'll spend today and tomorrow on Section 18, which is the new orders that crop up during this time, monastic orders, then we'll get to Cistercians. The Cistercians belong in this, but they're such a biggie that we'll do them separately, and they were somewhat before a lot of these, well, some of them. So did everybody finish the reading? Is it all done? Okay, what we'll do is we'll still turn the readers in, but when we get to Cistercians next week, then, if you have any questions or any comments you want to make on the little piece by Bernard, then we'll talk about it there. So just jot them down, and then at the end of the class, hand in the readers, and we're

[01:07]

done with that for this course. My purpose in giving you the readers is really basically just to acquaint you with a minimum amount of monastic texts sporadically throughout the history. I mean, there are thousands of texts we could choose. When we do our Kamaldi's History course, we'll be actually reading texts from our Kamaldi's people that we're talking about at the time. I'm in the midst of collecting them from European and American libraries right now, some things I could find in English, and other things we'll just translate ourselves for the course. That way, we'll be reading directly what's involved. This is just sort of a parallel thing we've been doing along the way. So I won't be surprised at all if you don't have anything to say about Bernard's steps of pride and humility. I just hope you see how he's mirroring two other works that we've already seen. We're not going to talk about that right now.

[02:09]

What are the two works we've already seen? The RV. The RV? Which part of the RV? The 12 Steps of Humility. Okay. And? Where did Benedict get his 12 Steps of Humility? John. Yes. No. No. John Cashin. Remember when I talked about John Cashin and that ten steps and whatnot? Well, actually, he doesn't call it the Steps of Humility or Pride. It's the same thing. And there are only a couple modifications among all three of them. So, it's certainly a continent thing. What we have with John Climacus and other, like Guigo, we're talking about today, Guigo II, is that ladder image. Climbing the monastic ladder. The scale of perfection. Where in Cashin was that? Confidence studies? It seems to me it's in the Institute's book four.

[03:10]

I'd have to go back and look it up. I can even give you a photocopy of it, so you won't have to. Well, that might not be the one, though. Remind me. It's the one I have a whole Seer and Preach retreat on. Just that one paragraph. I'm already clear. Before we finish off the other section with John Walbert, St. John Walbert, in answer to some of the questions, or a couple of questions about Kamaldolese at Dixie Homework, by the way, I ran into a quote from one of our historians this past week that said, at its highest, according to his count, what we know, these are houses that we know. The highest amount we had was 467 monasteries. Monasteries, not people. Today, we number about 150 worldwide, the men.

[04:15]

150. This isn't 467 people. It's 467 monasteries in our movement, in the Romualdian movement. As to where we were, there's four or five more other copies of this. I have this checked out to myself for the next, how many years am I going to live? Next 30 years. It's sort of like a Kamaldolese atlas with maps. And so if you want to look at one, just out of interest, it's in Italian, so hopefully you know Italian if you really want to get into it. And you can check them out, they're in the Kamaldolese section. 0.5. 098.5. 277, 098.5. Out of there, I've copied three pages for you. The first page is just the index, and it shows the countries other than, now of course you can add Africa, depends on where I'm on to this, where we had foundations other than

[05:21]

Italy. Almost everything is in Italy, statistically. But, look on the European map, get your magnifying glasses out, wherever you see a little dot, that's a Kamaldolese house. Italy starts getting real black, so there's the Italian map which is blown up, and you will see each one of these little dots is a house in Italy. So just pass those around while we begin. Okay, now these things are for today and tomorrow. I didn't have enough room on there. These go under BMC here. And so I'm not going to write them down again tomorrow, so get your spellings today. You don't have to remember all this stuff, even if you're writing this stuff down. You should remember this. How about this? Okay. You should remember Gilbert.

[06:24]

I've got them underlined, by the way, not crossing them. Yeah, good enough. Most of the real important things. Okay, we'll leave, we'll end precisely at 11, if not a little bit before today, because I've got to call the publisher at 11. It's sort of an appointment set aside for that call. John Walbert, who was at the same time as Ronald and Benedict, was another one of these very charismatic Italian reformers. He was noble, like Ronald, but he was from Firenze, not Ravenna. So he was Florentine, and he went to live at Camaldoli as a hermit. Camaldoli.

[07:38]

So it was after 1027 when he went there, because that's the year we assigned to the actual founding of Camaldoli. It was shortly before Ronald died. He lived there as a hermit at Camaldoli in the area, but he didn't stay there. And he went to a valley nearby, Vallombrosa, and founded a community there in that valley, which became the Vallombrosian congregation of Benedictine Order later on. For him, the hermitical life was not his personal vocation, he decided. And so he wanted to still reform monastic life, but he wanted a more cenobitic approach

[08:46]

rather than what was going on in Camaldoli itself. And so he began monastic life in a cenobitic fashion at Vallombrosa. And their big thing was poverty. This is sort of like the Benedictine Franciscans. I mean, if you want to look at a part of the Benedictine Order which mirrors the early idealism of the Franciscan movement, it would be the Vallombrosians. In the sense of lady poverty. Their observance was very, very strict regarding poverty. Almost poverty of destitution. There was strict enclosure at Vallombrosa because it was just assumed that no one had any reason to go anywhere at any time. And so no one ever went anywhere. So obviously if you're going to be that way, you've got to be... I mean, all of these monasteries are trying to be self-sufficient,

[09:47]

but the Vallombrosians really had to make sure that they were either well endowed by benefactors and that people could take care of their needs, or that they had to work awfully hard and make it. They had absolutely no pastoral work. So in many ways it's like the other reform movements going on. It's just not as aramidical as some of them. Definitely cenobitic. Very, very strict poverty. Oh, I see, they didn't accept any donations, so they absolutely had to make it on their own. They accepted no benefaction at all. All exterior activity is forbidden. So if they had anything that had to be done outside the enclosure, they had to have workers who did it. Because they themselves could not go out for any reason whatever.

[10:48]

When he died in 1073, it's not on there because it's from last week, there were six monasteries of Vallombrosians. So during his lifetime he got six monastic communities started. And John Gualberti, he was considered their abbot general, and so he would go from house to house and make sure everything was going on. And he was like the superior of all the houses. So he was a visitator, slant father general type figure. And each monastery had its own abbot, but the particular abbots reported to him every year. So this is the beginnings of a general chapter, like an annual general chapter, where at least the superiors come together. There are a few sources we have in our own Kamaulis history

[11:56]

regarding the relationship between Vallombrosians and Kamaulis, and I will hopefully get to that and treat it in our course next year. So there was basically a congregational system. A little congregation of monasteries with an abbot general in charge of the congregation. And the abbots were elected by the monks of the particular communities, but they're still under the abbot general as such. The abbot general was, it was set up that the abbots, whenever an abbot general died, the abbots among themselves would choose one of themselves to be the next abbot general. Later on, this congregation joined up with the reform movement

[12:57]

in the 16th century of St. Justina de Padova. And this is going to be a very biggie down the line, and we'll spend some time on that. This becomes the Cassanese congregation. It still exists. The Cassanese congregation. Abbey I stayed at, St. George of Maggiore in Venice last fall is part of that congregation. In fact, the biggie who started, and we'll talk about him later on, who started that actual reform movement, and he started a community, oddly enough, which became the greatest Benedictine congregation, with himself, he was a layman who became a canon, Louis Barbeau, this is his name, Luigi Barbeau, Ludovico Barbeau,

[13:58]

and two Camaldolese, and three Cistercians, or something like that. They all came together and made a nice stew, and it became the great Cassanese reform congregation of the Benedictine order. He died at San Giorgio, and I saw a wonderful painting of him, and read some things about his life and death there. Enough. That's all I have about John Broderick. So, while these are going on, subsequent to these reforms that we've talked about, basically, Peter Damian's activities, following upon Romuald's humongous Romuald reform movement, and John Valberti's relatively small, but significant reform movement,

[15:02]

we have all kinds of other reform movements going on. We've seen some earlier ones happening. Some of them are still going on at this time, and we have reform movements joining later reform movements, reforming themselves once again, and it just keeps perpetuating itself, because human nature being what it is, it needs to be reformed every two generations. And so every two generations, you've got tremendous reformers coming out. At least we used to. There still are some, I presume. And these are the ones we're basically going to look at for this period of time. Remember, also, we're going to look at the Cistercians, and then we're going to jump after the Cistercians, take a major jump forward in time. So, around 1100 then, various forms of reaction began to set in against what was going on with Cluny.

[16:06]

I mean, the Cluniac reform had become too big for its britches, was bursting at the seams, was seen as rich, opulent, too much. And so the black monks, and most of them were Cluniac by that time, Cluny had just swept the world, literally, the then known world. So, most of these movements are going to be ways to, like Citeaux was, and the Cistercians, to do another reform, and not live like what's happened to the Cluniacs, the black monks. Okay, so that's how you see these upcoming reforms then. And this is at a time when the black monks are the most powerful in the church. This isn't a time when they're totally degenerate and dying out. It's before that, they're at their height. So they're blossoming, they're in their golden age,

[17:08]

or just a little bit beyond their golden age, but people who want a simple, ascetical monastic life, no longer can find it in these black Benedictine houses, because they're all round-the-clock liturgies, and great festivals and parades, and great land holdings, lots of prestige, lots of political power, religious power, a number of popes. Of course, the Cistercians, don't lie, will have some popes too. At least in the beginnings, these movements, and Citeaux, are going to be movements against that. So that's how you situate it. In France, mainly. Much of this, this is really time for monastic, to look at monastic history in France, because that's where most of the stuff is happening, that I'm going to be talking about today. Not totally, but mostly. We'll also be popping over to Italy, and England a little bit. Just in general,

[18:15]

these people who wanted to challenge what was going on monastically, in the black rooms, decided they had to refuse a lot of the income that made Cluny as wealthy and too big for its britches that it had become. So they said, we won't take any tithes, people have been tithing their lives away to the monastery, giving ten percent of their life, and life's goods, to the monastery. Church revenues, any kind of church ecclesiastical revenues, most of these, if not all of them said, no, we don't want any more of that stuff. We don't want this money, we don't want these lands, we don't want benefits, we don't want parishes that we own, and that type of thing. We want to live by our own hands. Manual labor. So back again to Ora et Labora,

[19:17]

in a primitive fashion. They usually built very simple wooden monasteries. And of course, they have histories of building over and over and over again, because through the centuries, of course, these places are going to keep burning down. Just like the early Benedictine houses here in America. Most of them, who have been around a hundred years now, are on their third or fourth building and had great fires in the past. Unless you had big stone castles and whatnot, you had to keep building these things. Even with the American experience, even with brick places, they're half wood on the inside. Of course, the fire is going to ruin it anyway, so having the brick didn't help all that much that way. So, they usually built very simple wooden buildings and way out the sticks. Way out away from everything. Living poverty to the hilt, and

[20:19]

having also, like Romuald and Peter Damian in their movements, penitential aspects to their reform movements. Distinct penitential aspects. So, again, they take up the whip, and they do fasting, and they keep vigils up at night with their arms out. They're doing a real strong ascetical approach to monastic life. Another phenomenon that is real important at this time, and we've seen it with Romuald, we've seen it with some of Romuald's early disciples, we'll talk about that next year, but there's this common figure of the hermit wandering itinerant movement. So, the hermit slant and that is hermits who spend their days reforming and preaching and traveling various countries and starting foundations, just like

[21:20]

Romuald. He wasn't an isolated instance of this. In fact, there are works in our library, not so much in English, but in Italian and French, on this figure, this type of figure that was very predominant in Europe during these couple of centuries. The wandering hermits. It sounds almost what? Oxymoron, wandering hermit. Where you wander around the four walls. These are basically people who go in and out of deep, deep solitude and then do missionary work and preach, reform, and do incredible things when they're outside. First one we want to look at is Robert Auducel. Robert Auducel was an active priest,

[22:21]

diocesan priest type person, an active cleric in France, who felt a strong call to solitude, so he moved into solitude. Whenever you see a word that you don't say, I don't want to spell that, it's probably over here. And here's the first one that isn't. Crayon, he went to a place called Crayon, C-R-A-O-N and as often the case, it sounds like a round robin, a whole group of hermits in the woods near there, came around him. Evidently he was another one of these very charismatic individuals and they looked to him as leader and so you had another grouping of hermits starting up. This time in France. Well, when is this happening? Well, so this is the generation after Peter Damian's death.

[23:21]

So Peter Damian died in 1072. Let's say he's 30, so 1085, 1080, he's doing his thing. So what's 10, 15 years, 20 years after Peter Damian, just to put it in time-wise. He, however, was not too happy about I mean, that's not why he moved out on the sticks, was to become a father superior to a bunch of hermits who gathered around him. He wasn't happy about that and so he decided, well, I've had enough of this and he becomes one of these hermit slant itinerant preachers and off he goes. And he didn't go well, he might have gone far, but it wasn't too long before he had this whole flock of groupies following him on his itinerant preaching network. And they were all women. All women. He had this whole group of

[24:22]

groupie women. And he got so many and they were really authentic. They were authentic. They loved his idealism, what he had to say. That he set up, he had to set up a monastery for them. He had so many, he had enough to found an entire community and fill it. To begin with. And so, in the year 1100, he founded the famous monastery Fonte Bro, which will come back, I crossed it out, I didn't mean to, I was trying to underline. Like Fonte Avalana, Fonte Bro B-R-A-U-L-T And this will come back in history. Remember what this is, it's one of the most famous double monasteries. So he sets this monastery up for the women. There's an abbess, there's also a monastery of men there. It's a double monastery and they worship together. The men are under

[25:25]

the abbess. This is typical of a double monastery. The men are under the woman superior and they do all the work. So they're like sort of conversy for the for the women, the nuns, but they're not conversy. These are full choir nuns, a whole community of them. Okay? That's how the double monastery is usually set up. He, when he got that started in 1100 and continued on his itinerant preaching circuit founding a number of these types of double monasteries mainly for women but, you know, again double monasteries with men there too in the west of France. And by the time he died, so by the year 1117 there are 3,000

[26:26]

nuns, excuse me, maybe this is appropriate nuns and monks in his double monastery grouping, 3,000 of them living that way. It was very successful, wasn't it? Yeah, and many of these houses will continue on for centuries. Some of them down to the French Revolution when everything ends in France. Everything. And almost all over later on with Napoleon. He used R.B. He used the Rule of Benedict. Most of these Reform movements are going to use the Rule of Benedict. Some of them will make a little distinction, but most of them you can assume they're using the Rule of Benedict now. Again we haven't

[27:28]

really stepped too far back but we're back with John Boverti now so it's, we're about the same time as late so the Commodities thing is off let's not call it Commodities. The Romualdian movement is really in its heyday right now really taking off. The Adelaniti congregation in Italy is doing great same type of thing but their Rule when we talk about Rule we're talking R.B. The second one you tell us of Savigny right around the same time he was born five years after Robert was born and he died five years after Robert died He was a buddy of Robert's so this is one of his disciples and he decided if Robert

[28:28]

can be a wandering itinerant preacher or hermit so can I and so he does the same thing and in the year 1105 he founds a community for groupies at a place called Savigny near Savigny actually the forest nearby again, group of hermits living very primitive approach to monastic life and following R.B. but primitive observance real strict observance Other monasteries came off of Vitalis and his movement especially in Normandy and in England so we start having these movements spread into England this is an older one of course look at his name Gilbert of Saint-Premier and Vitalis ends up

[29:31]

with a small congregation in his lifetime of twelve monasteries again another very successful movement and this, his group he sets up general chapters he sets up regular visitations to keep everybody in line and keep happy having what they need the whole thing, very organized unfortunately it was sort of like it was all dependent on him he was a very charismatic individual and he was the leader and so no real leaders were there when he died to really take over and yet the houses they had wonderful people in them and I mean there was going great gods they just didn't have real charismatic individuals full of ideals with the same administrative ability and so this group joins CITO

[30:31]

so they become part of what the Cistercian group is we're not talking about Cistercians today just keep it here Cistercians right here because they're going on at the same time the White Monks and we'll talk about those next week a number of these and there are other groups that we're not talking about because they're too small but a number of them try to hook up with Cistercians and the Cistercians wouldn't take them especially after a couple generations the Cistercians were bursting at the seams anyway and so if they differed at all the Cistercians didn't want them Vitalis of Sunny his group lived like Cistercians anyway Cistercians said well you are a Cistercian come on in his group was very very the same approach as the Cistercians were doing so they had no problem taking in Vitalis's movement Bernard of Tyrone

[31:32]

approximately the same time as Robert he was a benedictine never going to elect an abbot and he ran away because he didn't want to be an abbot and so he ran to Vitalis he was still there he hadn't gotten traveling yet and he was there for a while and they all decided that he sort of had to go back he was a member of this community and he had to somehow he had to work things out he went back and what did they do they elected an abbot sure enough and he was an abbot but he got into a big quarrel with Cluny about how Cluny was too big for its britches and had its fingers in everything by this time and an abbot couldn't be an abbot under the Cluny congregation because Cluny was running everything and so he just

[32:36]

got in a huff and he renounced his abbacy and he left the community went into solitude and became another famous itinerant pyramid preacher he was in and out of solitude and after about maybe four years four years of that he took on a monastery that asked him to be its leader in the forest of Tyrone and they lived their life of extreme strictness solitude and manual labor same time primitive alpinistics approached a monastic reform and eventually formed a small congregation of another twelve monasteries during his lifetime and then many

[33:39]

small foundations, especially in England small priories that got started in England and this congregation lasted for five centuries and then joined up with the great Maurist congregation I only have this in parenthesis because we're obviously going to talk about this down the line, the Maurists but they eventually joined up with the Maurists, I have it there because I didn't know if you normally spell it Gilbert of St. Braham before the dates are correct he lived a hundred and six years he ate his stewed prunes every morning he was a parish priest who became very famous for spiritual direction and he had

[34:40]

large numbers of women groupies who came to him for spiritual direction and looked to him for what do we do we want we want to be like you type thing so he ends up having to form houses for them and forming a congregation which eventually become known as the Gilberteans in fact in the 14th century the Gilberteans in England are the most powerful and notable and monastic of all the women's groups in England during the 14th century filled with condoms filled with men condoms, abbeys, priories everywhere and the Gilberteans became the greatest are these married women running away from their husbands? no these are women

[35:41]

who want to live as nuns but either don't have the opportunity or don't like what houses already exist so these are the women the trouble with being a woman in these centuries is that you have absolutely no rights and you have no power you have no say there's no way to get anything no one listens to women or property and so there was no way for them to do anything unless they could get some charismatic men to set up things and get them under the protection of the church so that they could develop with their life so mainly that's really why these groups of groupies form around some of these nuns because it's their only way they can really get something started in the reform line and

[36:44]

he formed one beginning large community for these women who were gathering around him and he used what he heard about going on in the Cistercian order he used Cistercian influences in the formation of what his monastic community was going to be like for women and he had lay sisters who did a lot of the manual labor, a lot of the work so there were like two kinds of nuns so that anyone who could be a nun but if they didn't know Latin weren't going to be choir material or whatever were illiterate or whatever they could still be lay nuns be in the habit and everything and live more in the approach of manual labor, that type of service well Cistercians in short order do that in their movement too

[37:48]

as did Peter Damian and Rama we'll get into that in a minute when he felt he could no longer act as the superior or as the spiritual director for all these people he set up in his house because it was too big he asked Sito if they could take them into their movement Sito said nope and so he got a group of canons and we'll be talking about canons shortly to serve them as chaplains because more than one house they got a number of foundations started so to be their spiritual directors, to be their chaplains basically they're like they get to a point where

[38:49]

it's like a double community where you have the Gilbertean nun with a chapter of canons next door who originally were their chaplains but turned out to be like a parallel male community in a double monastery the nuns followed the rule of Benedict but the canons they're already canons so what rule do they follow? the rule of Augustine so here's one of those instances where there are different rules being set up and the conversi that are there so the lay people who are living a semi-monastic life they're doing a lot of work and that's their approach are modeled on the Cistercian constitutions for the conversi so they actually take the document set up by the Cistercians for how conversi are set

[39:50]

up in their community and they use that document the document if you want to know is called the Usus Conversorum so in no time at all what you have in effect is another double monastery system and in order to that the no scandal was going to come of this because human nature being what it is obviously there's going to be all kinds of imaginary things going on in these double monasteries with the bassinets in the middle and what not he Gilbert set it up in a very very strict fashion his arrangement there just was very little contact actually but this movement which was very very sincere

[40:51]

got off the ground very quickly and their expansion into England in no time at all had 14 very large Gilbertian houses in England oh it's the 12th century excuse me so it's the century we're talking about Gilbert's whole lifetime that his group becomes the greatest most powerful monastic witness for women in England I remember we had big convents Benedictines and what not since early Anglo-Saxon times and then certainly the men even before that the Celtic Celtic houses here we're in the 12th century and Gilbertines okay Provincial challenges

[41:52]

the Benedictines in France probably because what they saw Citeaux doing it's how it was going to operate a rather large fast-moving, fast-growing order and the Benedictines saw that it was working began to group their own abbots in the 12th century into regular meetings where the abbots would get together and discuss problems, solutions and reforms it wasn't anything like it wasn't okay all the Benedictine abbots in this country are going to get together this is the 12th century so you don't have that what you have in various parts of France is that abbots are getting together sort of like local gatherings all over the country of Benedictine abbots and others hear about it in their section they get something started

[42:56]

and that's how it begins for the Benedictines in France obviously this is going to be difficult with the Cistercians you've got a fresh new movement right off the bat from the beginning you can set it up, that's the way it is it's law, it's approved by the Pope and that's it that's it not the Benedictines gosh they've been around for centuries each house is autonomous each house is its own some of them are much more exempt than others and they look upon other houses of the Benedictines with as much suspicion as they would upon the Bishop or the Pope or the army next door so each house has its own tradition its own history, its own observances quite different from one another the various abbots

[44:00]

of the various houses are quite different in their standings and in their power and in their approach to monastic life there was no way to make any the abbots could get together but there was no way they could make any binding resolutions or anything all you do is sort of like advise one another because there was no bonding, there was no official bonding anyone in the church even if they came out with decrees everyone would just laugh and say, well, who are you? you know, why should we do this? even for their own houses, the monks could say that there's no power also, a number of abbots this time to friends, don't have any power they couldn't implement things even if they wanted to that's part of the problem that's why they want to get together to talk about these things is that they have lay people over them other forces at work

[45:00]

that leave them, more or less powerless regarding reform in the houses and orders that already have existed for a long time also, there's a number of abbots who are absolutely anything but official and are totally recalcitrant they want nothing to do with nobody they're there for the money or the position or whatever, and they use it and so the monks of the houses are in very sad situations and there's nothing they can do about it even if they had had power the Benedictines at this time even if they had worked something out at this point in history, in France and made resolutions the bishops would have ignored them the bishops would have flaunted them because the bishops haven't come around yet to having their hands slapped regarding what abbeys and monasteries are really supposed to be

[46:00]

and how they are exempt you know, we're talking money we're talking still a feudal as in feudalism situation and we're talking property and money more than anything else not totally of course it's just that there's still a lot of this going on it's still an influence it's still at work so we get a series of popes who are going to tackle this problem and they've got to take on the bishops as well as the lay leaders as well as the monks in order to get something worked out Pope Innocent III was a real his strength, if he had one strength it was centralization we need centralization the church has to be centralized and so he was always butting into the Benedictine affairs thank God he was in order to centralize let's get things organized there's too much disparity there's too much chaos

[47:02]

in this set up because when you have orders and reform movements starting up what are they? They're centralized and they start systems and they have visitations and chapters and everything is under control in an orderly way each house is doing its own thing and always has and always will be as far as they're concerned even if you do it on a local basis so you do your province will do this so people, all the houses in Provence will get together and have their annual thing and come out with some legislation get it approved start centralizing and organizing where am I? when you get to the

[48:06]

4th Vatican Council the 4th Lateran one of the most important councils in the history of the church 4th Lateran the year this is the date you should remember 1215 no, you should memorize it now I haven't you should memorize that's an important church date there's about a half dozen of them this is one of them the 4th Lateran did so much in church reform that still that has managed to keep our church together besides Trent the 4th Lateran is probably the most significant I'm not talking about the early church councils where they were defining dogma I'm talking about the ordering of the church and getting a structure and getting it cleaned up and reformed Trent Vatican II and 4th Lateran

[49:09]

and then also the councils of Constance and Basel and Fornster are also very important too almost to a lesser degree and some of our own people were involved where did they clean up the economic controversy about the 4th Lateran oh I don't remember I don't remember the 4th Lateran thing with monasticism is like one canyon it was just an immense council what it came to and it was tackling the entire church structure and so what I'm looking at right now is the oh they did an immense amount if you study church history those of you who go on theological studies you're going to keep running back to 4th Lateran references to 4th Lateran 1215 that's why I say it's an important date because if you can think 1215 and remember all this other stuff just from a monastic point of view you can easily situate yourself

[50:11]

understand what's going on in the church at that time and it's right after Peter Daniel and stuff well it's a century after but I mean you still have all those same difficulties being dealt with and 4th Lateran is going to deal with a lot of these disciplinary things I think one of the things 4th Lateran comes out with is regarding some big statements regarding clerical celibacy well obviously all that concubinage stuff gets out of hand tackles a lot of the disciplinary things that need taking care of in the church what did it do for the Benedictines? Canon number 12 is what it does for the Benedictines it orders every province of Benedictines to have regular not annual

[51:12]

regular chapters and why are you getting together? you are getting together for renewal for reform that is stated it has to last several days at least I mean they get specific you have to because most of these people don't want to do it you have to seriously consider reform or you can't say that you've had your chapter the decrees that you come up with which we will see not we will the church will are valid for 4 years at the end of which you have another one and while they are valid they have to be obeyed by all and there will be visitators

[52:13]

who will come and look at each house and these visitators have papal power so as if the pope himself is coming into the house and saying do this and do that and you better do it they can even depose abbots this is the real one they can depose abbots and it's valid because they had to take care somehow had to take care of these abbots who were in it for other reasons than the monastic and they had to clean up the act at this time is there such a thing as a benedictine order or is this for everybody we're beginning to think benedictines now or black monks so when they write these canons do they address it to

[53:15]

benedictines now it might have been another monastic order but the other monastic are just happening and they're already doing this that's the reason the benedictines feel that they have to do now because everybody else is doing it in reaction to how they were set up but the thing is that's not the main reason for the visitation that's sort of like an extreme example when they gotta go and clean up abbots they're going to the houses mainly to visit with each monk to hear their side to hear of what problems what strengths there are how they see the community how they see the movement so it's like an annual or like a checkup but it's a very powerful checkup because it can change things

[54:16]

real quick this is new this is new the only way you could do this before is to really go to power go to bishops and get bishops to go in and depose an abbot and drag him off to prison or whatever well you can only do that in some cases because already now you're talking about houses that bishops can't touch so a pope would have to do it so this is a new approach for Benedictines it's the approach that a lot of these things are starting up these movements unfortunately it just doesn't solve everything because first of all canon number 12 of the 4th Lateran council doesn't say what the province is or it doesn't even set up

[55:18]

provincial chapters it doesn't specify those things there's an out you say, what province are we talking about? and so again you have a lot of them just flaunting it um 4th Lateran makes these decrees at the same time doesn't tackle the issue of exemption so these houses that are exempt and are only under the pope that has to be all worked out before this makes any sense and they didn't do it the presiders at the chapters their duties were not specified by 4th Lateran other than you gotta talk and you gotta talk seriously about reform but the duties because you've got to invest

[56:18]

ecclesiastically with power somebody in charge of something like this or it's not going to go anywhere and no one has to listen and no one has to change and no one has the right to call an ecclesiastical vote or make decrees well that wasn't specified by 4th Lateran, unfortunately and so when the bishops would take on some of the some of these chapters and say, we don't accept this and we don't we won't allow our houses to in our areas to implement these reforms often it was because of this money or whatever associated with problems they they were just flaunted and they could get away with flaunting it because it hadn't gotten specific enough

[57:20]

it got nicely specific for a change regarding Benedictines but it's only a beginning it's only a beginning another added added problem is that Benedictines are still caught in a feudal basically feudal as in feudalism set up and so a lot of these are still run by lay rulers so it's property they're still bleeding them dry and they can't wrest it away from the hands of these lay leaders who just flaunt the whole thing and so what Innocent III tried look, he died the year after the 4th Lateran was very short-lived very short-lived and pretty powerless and so we'll pick up tomorrow

[58:24]

with the next pope, Innocent IV and look at these other movements yeah that'll probably be tomorrow we won't get to Cistercius till next week okay

[58:38]